Need advice on open Mare

[TJ]

TJ,

We're talking about thoroughbred race horse breeding, we're not talking about cows TJ . Historically, breeders won't linebreed closer than 3X4 for a racehorse because historically, going closer than that results in horses that don't win races.

Generally, linebreeding in horses is done 4X4 and back.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
You aren't insulting me if you disagree with what I said...while having a civil conversation about it. Hopefully I can learn from it, which is the object of our conversation. Although, I'm well aware we are not "talking about cows here"...which I suppose I could interpret as an insult, but in the spirit of learning I will accept it as a punctuation mark needed by you to get your point across.
In my knowledge of TB breeding a TB breeder uses slightly different terminology than other livestock breeders...let's say cow breeder's for example. In TB breeding, Inbreeding refers to a duplication of a single ancestor within five generations. Whereas linebreeding refers to duplicating a single ancestor within more than five generations. These are similar but certainly not interchangeable when talking TB breeding as the distinction between being linebred and inbred is because of these generation gaps. In your example that linebreeding isn't done closer than 3x4....you are correct. Because 3x4 isn't line breeding it is inbreeding. TJ

[griff]

This one should light up the board!

griff

[Jeff]

TJ,

In thoroughbred race horse breeding, we call it linebreeding, we don't call it inbreeding. You brought up livestock and changed the subject TJ, but since this is a thoroughbred forum......

Let's get the lifejacket response.

Jeff

[DDT]

Jeff

The widely accepted definition of inbreeding is explained in an article published on PedigreePost.net in September 2001, Anne Peters gives the following definition of inbreeding.

“By definition, “inbreeding” is the mating of two closely related individuals. The degree of relationship varies. “closebreeding” refers to the mating of very close relatives such as sibling to sibling or parent to offspring matings. In the Thoroughbred, it is generally accepted that repeating any ancestor within four generations falls under their outer limits of “inbreeding,” while any duplications beyond that four generation limit are described as “linebreeding.””

When the industry began to use 5 generation pedigrees this accepted definition has expanded to the 5th generation for the most part, however, I believe the correct definition is inbreeding through the 4th generation and linebreeding for the 5th and beyond.


DDT

[TJ]

TJ,

In thoroughbred race horse breeding, we call it linebreeding, we don't call it inbreeding. You brought up livestock and changed the subject TJ, but since this is a thoroughbred forum......

Let's get the lifejacket response.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
I know the proper terms in TB breeding...they are as I described. TJ

[zinn21]

DDT, that is my understanding as well. Now, Jeff, you wrote: "Historically, breeders won't linebreed closer than 3X4 for a racehorse because historically, going closer than that results in horses that don't win races."

How did you arrive at that conclusion? Is there some data you can point me to? Is inbreeding some kind of disease that manifests inside 3x4? All inbreeding allows for is a higher degree of similar genetic material inherited by the resulting foal. If said genetic material is broken wind or tied in tendons or bad feet you are likely to have an inferior racehorse. But if the genetic material is superior heart, conformation, desire, fast twitch muscle etc. then you are likely to have a superior racehorse. Inbreeding only allows for more of the same genes to be passed forward. Therefore the closer you inbreed the more of the same will be passed good and bad-hopefully good..

[Jeff]

DDT,

Inbreeding is linebreeding, linebreeding is inbreeding. It's all a matter of semantics.

And as you very well know, inbreeding; it connotes a somewhat negative meaning to many people, where as the term linebreeding does not, so it's all a matter of semantics. If you refer to 'inbreeding', I'll know what you'r talking about, but I'll just call it close linebreeding.
All just a matter of semantics. A matter of being polite.

And obviously, linebreeding is a good thing to produce a good thoroughbred runner, and sometimes even close linebreeding results in a good thoroughbred runner. Like this one here.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/atago+taisho

Atago Taisho 3x3 Mr. Prospector, a little closer than usual linebreeding there, a bit above average earnings for a horse linebred that closely $1,162,275

Some sink and some circle. I'd say Atago Taisho didn't sink.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/hals+hope

Here's a concrete pedigree, 3x5 Cosmah which translates to 4x4 pedigree in influence. Looks like Hal's Hope didn't sink either, his linebreeding carried him to $1,098,422 in earnings

One thing we know for sure; Hope Floats. So we all need to put lots of Love and Hope into our mating decisions, whether or not we call it linebreeding or inbreeding.

Jeff

[TJ]

DDT,

Inbreeding is linebreeding, linebreeding is inbreeding. It's all a matter of semantics.

And as you very well know, inbreeding; it connotes a somewhat negative meaning to many people, where as the term linebreeding does not, so it's all a matter of semantics. If you refer to 'inbreeding', I'll know what you'r talking about, but I'll just call it close linebreeding.
All just a matter of semantics. A matter of being polite.

And obviously, linebreeding is a good thing to produce a good thoroughbred runner, and sometimes even close linebreeding results in a good thoroughbred runner. Like this one here.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/atago+taisho

Atago Taisho 3x3 Mr. Prospector, a little closer than usual linebreeding there, a bit above average earnings for a horse linebred that closely $1,162,275

Some sink and some circle. I'd say Atago Taisho didn't sink.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/hals+hope

Here's a concrete pedigree, 3x5 Cosmah which translates to 4x4 pedigree in influence. Looks like Hal's Hope didn't sink either, his linebreeding carried him to $1,098,422 in earnings

One thing we know for sure; Hope Floats. So we all need to put lots of Love and Hope into our mating decisions, whether or not we call it linebreeding or inbreeding.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
I think you might be wrong about that....inbreeding and linebreeding are two different things differentiated by the generations the duplicates appear in an individual's pedigree. TJ

[TJ]

TJ,

In thoroughbred race horse breeding, we call it linebreeding, we don't call it inbreeding. You brought up livestock and changed the subject TJ, but since this is a thoroughbred forum......

Let's get the lifejacket response.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
This is what I wrote, I didn't change the subject of what inbreeding and linebreeding is. Although I will defer to DDT's post and agree inbreeding was and most likely still is within 4 generations as I said first 5 generations. TJ
Hi Jeff,
One of the distinctions (specific to TB breeder's as this differ's from livestock breeders) between being inbred or linebred is that linebreeding occurs outside the 4th generation of a pedigree....beyond the boundaries of a qualifying RF. Inbreeding occurs within the first 5 generations. Therefore the RF dams could be considered inbred in a pedigree (as noted in color codes that denotes inbreeding in the PQ pedigree profiles), but not linebred. TJ

[DDT]

Jeff

If linebreeding and inbreeding are the same why do you suppose there are two terms? It is not a matter of semantics. Linebreeding has a different definition than inbreeding.

DDT

[Jeff]

DDT,
There are other names for ladies of tbe evening, but it's largly a matter of semantics for other names.

It's all linebreeding, how close to sub-classify.it as inbred is a mater of difference of opinion. As a gentleman, I prefer the term close linebreeding.

[DDT]

Jeff

I know you must have the last word so this is my final post on this subject. You can have any opinion you desire and still not change the fact that inbreeding and linebreeding are two different terms used when dealing with thoroughbred horses and being a gentleman has nothing to do with it. You have your opinion and the rest of the thoroughbred world has a different opinion.

DDT

[dublino]

its simple ladies

linebreeding occurs in the same generation ie 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4 th or 5th

inbreeding occurs anywhere in the first 5 generations

take this an an example

http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

Big Brown is linebred to Northern Dancer

Big Brown is inbred to Damascus and Round table.

[TJ]

its simple ladies

linebreeding occurs in the same generation ie 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4 th or 5th

inbreeding occurs anywhere in the first 5 generations

take this an an example

http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

Big Brown is linebred to Northern Dancer

Big Brown is inbred to Damascus and Round table.

Hi Dub,
This "lady" just doesn't see it as "simply" as you do...I see Big Brown being inbred to Northern Dancer and Damascus and linebred to Round Table. With that I will join DDT and make this my final post on this subject and leave the thread in the capable and sarcastic hands of Dublino. TJ

[Roguelet]

Right away, we need to clear up some definitions. The Thoroughbred breeder uses slightly different terminology than other livestock breeders. Inbreeding refers specifically to a duplication of a single ancestor within five generations. A concept that is related but distinct is line-breeding, which refers to duplication of a single ancestor within more than five generations. (Note that this definition differs significantly from how "linebreeding" is used in other livestock breeding.)

Read the entire article here Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees


AND

The term “linebreeding” is frequently used as a reference in Thoroughbred breeding to duplications of ancestors occurring beyond the fourth generational remove. In livestock breeding, however, the term “linebreeding” has a more specialized usage. An individual is considered to be linebred when both parents have multiple occurrences of the same “line” within pedigree space that is considered useful. The purpose of linebreeding, in this sense, is to select one trait that happened to be uniquely expressed by that line. Because of the uniqueness of that line’s contribution, any incidental duplications of other ancestors would only detract from the effectiveness of linebreeding. This is why the extent to which an individual is considered linebred depends upon the avoidance of such incidental duplications.
Clearly, the term “linebreeding” as used in discussions of Thoroughbred breeding has a trivialized denotation. It’s nothing more than a matter of generational distance. At first blush, the prevalence of this usage in discussions of Thoroughbred breeding seems harmless enough, but it happens that understanding the function and purpose of linebreeding, in its specialized sense, is crucial to understanding a fundamental difference between Thoroughbred breeding and livestock breeding, a difference to which Thoroughbred breeders, generally, are not nearly attentive enough.

Read the entire article here Linebreeding vs. Inbreeding