Need advice on open Mare

[TJ]

In my opinion the Rasmussen Factor is an important factor for a small breeder and/or owner. I know there are many that disagree, but I've seen it to be of value in so many aspects of horse racing. Although I believe it is held in higher regard with some of us older participants:>) It is worth taking an extra look at those possible purchases or hypo-matings that carry the RF to decent producers within their pedigree.
Today at Saratoga I went for a first time starter named Hedonemewrongsong trained by Jonathan Sheppard just for that reason...her owner breeder produced the RF to Lassie Dear through 1/2 sibling's Weekend Surprise (producer of AP Indy, Summer Squall and Honor Grades) and Charming Lassie (producer of Lemon Drop Kid). This 2YO filly won today at Saratoga in her first start going 1 1/16th miles over the turf. TJ
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hedonemewrongsong

You might like a couple of breedings we've done for our mare Classic West. This is the pedigree of this year's foal. Sweet Tooth (dam of Alydar) and Sugar Plum Time (dam of Christmas Bonus) are 3/4 sisters. Their dam is Plum Cake.

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedig ... me=Classic West&foaling_year=2012&nicking_stats_indicator=Y


Classic West is currently in foal to Include, which offers inbreeding to two good mares, Too Bald and Hidden Talent.

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedig ... Y&x=22&y=8

Hi LB,
Breeding to Arch is something else all together....I think he's one heck of a sire...RF not necessary:>) As a matter of fact, Pletcher has a string of 2YO maiden winners at the Spa this year....I think he unveiled 20 or more so far. With all these good 2 YO's winners he's had...he said his best is a son of Arch who will race this Thursday....his name is Archwarrior and he will be a very short price.
The Include you have in the oven is very interesting (and a more reasonable stud fee:>)...and a rare find in one pedigree. The RF to Hidden Talent coming through 1/2 sibs Too Bald (who produced Baldski ans Exceller) and Turn To Talent (who produced Hay Patcher who produced Broad Brush) is good enough but then you produce a 2nd RF to Too Bald through 1/2 sibling's Capote and Baldski. That is a real concentration of super blood that may just find you with a throwback from yesteryear:>) Good luck. TJ

[LB]

Thanks TJ! I've had my eye on Archwarrior for a while now--since he got a sloppy/sealed track for what would have been his first start, and then came up also-eligible the next time he was entered. Hopefully tomorrow's race goes smoothly.

I, too, am a huge fan of Arch. We have another mare in foal to him this year and hope to breed to him in 2013 as well. With regard to the first mating you mentioned: several years ago we also did a mating that was linebred to Lassie Dear (by Lemon Drop Kid and out of a mare whose second dam was Weekend Surprise). It seemed like a really interesting idea but unfortunately the foal was not born alive.

[TJ]

Thanks TJ! I've had my eye on Archwarrior for a while now--since he got a sloppy/sealed track for what would have been his first start, and then came up also-eligible the next time he was entered. Hopefully tomorrow's race goes smoothly.

I, too, am a huge fan of Arch. We have another mare in foal to him this year and hope to breed to him in 2013 as well. With regard to the first mating you mentioned: several years ago we also did a mating that was linebred to Lassie Dear (by Lemon Drop Kid and out of a mare whose second dam was Weekend Surprise). It seemed like a really interesting idea but unfortunately the foal was not born alive.

Hi LB,
Too bad you lost that foal...and good luck with the other Arch in the oven:>) There's one thing about Arch that always caught my eye...Courtly Dee in his 3rd generation. I wonder if there are any mares around that have siblings of Courtly Dee in their 4 generation pedigree? Imagine creating a foal with a RF to Courtly Dee:>) TJ

[LB]

There's one thing about Arch that always caught my eye...Courtly Dee in his 3rd generation. I wonder if there are any mares around that have siblings of Courtly Dee in their 4 generation pedigree? Imagine creating a foal with a RF to Courtly Dee:>) TJ

I may have to work on that!

I forgot when I posted before that we also linebred to Lassie Dear another time, with Lemon Dop Kid and a Summer Squall mare. The filly that resulted from that mating became a three-time Group 2 winner in Russia.

[Jeff]

TJ, I agree 100%. Good job using your pedigree knowledge to pick a winner! Excellent


Jeff

In my opinion the Rasmussen Factor is an important factor for a small breeder and/or owner. I know there are many that disagree, but I've seen it to be of value in so many aspects of horse racing. Although I believe it is held in higher regard with some of us older participants:>) It is worth taking an extra look at those possible purchases or hypo-matings that carry the RF to decent producers within their pedigree.
Today at Saratoga I went for a first time starter named Hedonemewrongsong trained by Jonathan Sheppard just for that reason...her owner breeder produced the RF to Lassie Dear through 1/2 sibling's Weekend Surprise (producer of AP Indy, Summer Squall and Honor Grades) and Charming Lassie (producer of Lemon Drop Kid). This 2YO filly won today at Saratoga in her first start going 1 1/16th miles over the turf. TJ
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hedonemewrongsong

[stlouiskid]

Breeding this mare with the goal of selling her foals for a profit is a pipe dream at this point. Here is how we would evaluate her potential foals from a business model standpoint.
Pedigree-good under 2nd and 3rd dam, but Pining is by Pine Bluff, a failed sire to many. Market would not look upon positive.
Page, excellent under 4th dam, 3rd dam ok, 2nd dam weak.
Produce record of Pining-weak. Market would say she does not produce runners.
Race record of Pining-so so, broke maiden at Tampa, should have been dropped instead of so many tries in allowance races. Seems like they did not want to lose her for some reason.
The sales market really punishes mares who have had a few foals and not produced black type. The only way to overcome this is to have an off the charts type of page, with many black type horses under second dam. Not the case here.
I never tell anyone not to breed a mare. The only way to make any money other than racing her foal and hoping to get a runner(big risk here), would be to breed in a state with good breeders awards. We have been foaling some horses in Indiana of late and selling the babies as weanlings for a little more than the stud fees, to good trainers that race in Indiana. We get 20% of the purses when they win.

[Jeff]

This mare has one foal linebred to Danzig 3x4 And another linebred to Affirmed 3x3, certainly someone was not thinking of the auctions when they made these breedings. Her Quiet American filly wnt to Peru, somebody thought a lot of her. Her 2012 foal by Edubai may be a good runner. Pining may very well be a great producer in the future. If that 4x4 Cosmah kicks in, could be a great runner. Conventional wisdom is against her though, her sale price, 4 foals and no winners, just the fact she was mentioned on this forum, they all work against her.

I consider her sale price just somebody stoled her, and she doesn't have a winner yet because someone chose to make her foals old enough to have a race history to inbred by their breeding decisions.

Of course the conventional wisdom was against Seattle Slew also, he has 10 siblings that didn't do much, 4 that never raced, good thing he was born first.

[Jeff]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/perfectly+ready

Here's a little Rasmussen Factor at work in Pining's female family.

[TJ]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/perfectly+ready

Here's a little Rasmussen Factor at work in Pining's female family.

Hi Jeff,
Not actually, it's true Almahmoud is the dam of Natalma and Cosmah but there is no RF to Natalma within Pining's 5 generation pedigree profile. Your earlier post, speaking of Ashado is another who has the rare combo of 2 RF's to both Almahmoud and Cosmah.....although not through all the same siblings. Pining creates her RF to Cosmah thru 1/2 siblings Halo and La Dame Du Lac, where Ashado gets it through 1/2 siblings Halo and Maribeau. Although Pining and Ashado's RF to Almahmoud are through the same 1/2 siblings....Natalma and Cosmah. It is some interesting pedigree building to say the least.
What I found interesting is Darley's breeding pattern for Ashado. They created the RF again in both of the foals the mare had, one foal carried the RF to Natalma and the other the RF to Almahmoud. I find it interesting that Darley consider's the RF to either of these mares as something worth perpetuating in their breeding program. TJ

[madelyn]

Somehow I have always had the impression that the RF was something one only did intentionally, expecting a result from, through the two direct damlines of the dam and the sire, ie on the very bottom of the pedigree of each. To see the influence, I mean. So that I would take my mare who is tail female to Rough Shod to a stallion whose dam is tail female to Rough Shod. Else it is all just pennies in a jar?

[Fireslam]

I think its fair to say the fact that the Ashado breedings (and I only see one that is RF) may have been RF have little or no impact why Darley bred her to Storm Cat and Street Cry.

[TJ]

I think its fair to say the fact that the Ashado breedings (and I only see one that is RF) may have been RF have little or no impact why Darley bred her to Storm Cat and Street Cry.

Hi Fireslam,
Take another look at Ashado's foals....Steele Road RF to Natalma and Star Cat RF to Almahmoud.....both 5x5 in their pedigree's. TJ

[TJ]

Somehow I have always had the impression that the RF was something one only did intentionally, expecting a result from, through the two direct damlines of the dam and the sire, ie on the very bottom of the pedigree of each. To see the influence, I mean. So that I would take my mare who is tail female to Rough Shod to a stallion whose dam is tail female to Rough Shod. Else it is all just pennies in a jar?

Hi Madelyn,
The RF doesn't have to be in any particular spot in the pedigree other than to be present in full or 1/2 siblings in the sire and the dam of the resulting foal within it's first 5 generations.
In the example you cite, if Rough Shod appears within the first five generations of both parents in the mating through 1/2 or full siblings then the RF to Rough Shod would be present in that foal. TJ

[Jeff]

TJ, thank-you for sharing your pedigree knowledge with us and our moderator, we all learn.

[TJ]

TJ, thank-you for sharing your pedigree knowledge with us and our moderator, we all learn.

Hi Jeff,
I find the RF very intriguing...personally I don't use it to breed, although if I had the patience to wait I would:>) I've made some very good claims and buys finding the RF and certain dosage patterns within their 5 generation pedigree's. John Nerud, the master of Tartan Farm, was a friend of Leon Rasmussen who came up with it....and Nerud was a fan who used it when he mated Fappiano to Gana Facil. The match created a 4x4 RF to Aspidistra through 1/2 siblings Dr. Fager and Magic...what I also found interesting was the only other inbreeding in this match was 4x5 to Rough and Tumble who sired Dr. Fager. Another plus in this mating was Magic....she brought the RF to this match on the dams side and she herself carried the RF to the great La Troienne 4x4 in her pedigree thru 1/2 siblings Businesslike and Bimelech. The resulting foal was Unbridled. TJ