Looking for some guidance on whether or not I should keep this mare and give her another shot. Her name is Pining.
I have a small operation and I try to breed to the best I can afford. I bought her open 2 yrs ago, bred her to EDubai and got an EDubai filly out of her this year. She was bred to Petionvlle this year (twice) but did not catch. Is she worth keeping and rebreeding her or would it be better to cull her and try to buy another mare in foal in the mixed sales.
My primary goal is to sell as weanling or yearling and race last.
Inbreeding:
Northern Dancer: 3S X 4D
Nearctic: 4S X 5D
Natalma: 4S X 5D
Cosmah: 4S X 4D
Native Dancer: 5S X 5D
Almahmoud: 5S X 5S X 5D
Crafty Admiral: 5S X 4D
Cosmic Bomb: 5S X 5D
RACE RECORD for Pining: At 2, unplaced in 1 start; at 3, two wins, once 2nd, once 3rd; at 4, unplaced in 1 start. Totals: 2 wins, once 2nd, once 3rd. Earned $40,449.
PRODUCE RECORD for Pining:
2007 Star of Bernstein, f. by Bernstein. Unplaced, $200. (SPR=1)
2008 Unnamed, f. by Bandini.
2009 no report received.
2010 Asombrosa, f. by Quiet American. Unraced. Sent from United States to Peru in 2011.
2011 Not bred previous year.
2012 Unnamed, f. by E Dubai.
2013 Bred to Petionville.
Need advice on open Mare
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
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Barcaldine
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 634
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:55 pm
- Location: KY
Those mares that just refuse to carry another while they are nursing one have to really earn their keep, in my opinion. The foal would have to be a real corker and pay for two years of mare care to make it up. You are faced with seven months or so plus lights to get her in foal early next year... I guess it depends on how much you love her.. 
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Keep the mare and try again, you have a genetic GEM in that 4x4 Cosmah, You have sex balanced Cosmah in the 1/2 siblings Halo and La Dame Du Lac!
I'd haul her nearby to mate her to Halo Najib standing in V. All the Halo's love her breeding, Ballado's Gold there in PA would work too.
Here's a tip from my pedigree research, go look at every Halo, Saint Ballado, they LOVE, they ADORE returns to Pharamond II, not only that they love returns to his full brother Sickle, his 1/2 brother Hyperion and also their dam Selene, and their dam Selene's 1/2 brother Bosworth.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/saint+ballado
Look at Saint Ballado's pedigree, using the adage, return to the best of the sire's dam. Halo's damsire line is Cosmic Bomb- Pharamond II out of Selene.
Saint Ballado's dam Ballade, her sire line Herbager, Vandale, Plassy, BOSWORTH. And who is Bosworth? He is is Selene's 1/2 brother!
Now let's look at Halo Najib http://www.pedigreequery.com/halo+najib
Look at his 5th dam's sir: Cochise-Boswell-Bosworth, returns to Halo's damsire Cosmic Bomb-Pharamond-Selene: 1/2 to Bosworth.
Let's look at other Halo Najib returns to Halo's damsire line.
Natalma-Native Dancer-Polynesian-Unbreakable-Sickle full brother to Halo's sire line Pharamond II.
Nijinsky's damline: Flaring Top-by Menow-Pharamond II.
Forli-Aristophanes-Hyperion; 1/2 brother to Pharamond II
Fast Turn-Cherokee Rose-The Squaw-Sickle; full brother to Pharamond II.
Go down a list of Halo's chief earners, Saint Ballado's chief earners, The sons of Halo and the Son's of Saint Ballado's chief earners and you will find returns to Pharamond II, his full brother, his 1/2 brother and his dam's 1/2 brother.
Having a couple of well bred sons of Saint Ballado; Popular and Gotham City, nearby to where I live, I first noticed there seemed to be an affinity to Tom Fool in the pedigrees of Gotham City's chief earners, King City Kitty-4x4 Tom Fool-Menow-Pharamond II.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+bat+signal
I kept wondering why these Halo's, Saint Ballado's like Tom Rolfe-Pocahontas-How-The Squaw by Pharamond II.
Let's look at Popular's top runner
http://www.pedigreequery.com/halo+dolly2
Arabia- Look at that, you pick up Pharamond and his full brother Sickle in her sire Damasus, and you pick up their 1/2 brother Hyperion in her dam Christmas Wind.
Alydar-Every RAN leads to Sickle, full brother to Pharamond II.
Priceless Fame- Brings a Menow by Pharamond II through a daugher.
Three Red Bells- Brings Hyperion, 1/2 brother to Pharamond II.
Halo My Darlin- By Halo-Cosmah-Cosmic Bomb-Pharamond II.
That's why these Halo horse LOVE returns to Halo, it brings back returns to Halo's broodmare sireline;PHARAMOND II!!!!!
Then the Val De L'Orne in Halo Dolly's pedigree, any significance there? He brings another line of Vandale-Plassy-Bosworth; 1/2 brother to Selene, dam of Pharamond II.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/fanny+chenal
Tom Fool through Buckpasser, Tom Fool through Tim Tam.
Don't take my word for it, start looking at the best runners of the Halo, Saint Ballado clan, you'll notice they like Buckpasser, don't be fooled, it's not just the Buckpasser, it's the Tom Fool, Menow, Pharamond II that comes with it. Start looking for the lines to Pharamond II in their best runners and you'll see a pattern.
Your mare Piney is a genetic gem, that double Cosmah-Cosmic Bomb-Pharamond II is just begging for a return to a Halo sire line.
Every Northern Dancer cross returns a Selene through Hyperion on the top and a Selene through Sickle on the bottom.
wgc517, you knew there was something special about Pining's pedigree when you bought her, you had very good instincts, you picked a good one. I hope you keep her and breed her to a Halo line, best of luck whatever you do.
Jeff
I'd haul her nearby to mate her to Halo Najib standing in V. All the Halo's love her breeding, Ballado's Gold there in PA would work too.
Here's a tip from my pedigree research, go look at every Halo, Saint Ballado, they LOVE, they ADORE returns to Pharamond II, not only that they love returns to his full brother Sickle, his 1/2 brother Hyperion and also their dam Selene, and their dam Selene's 1/2 brother Bosworth.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/saint+ballado
Look at Saint Ballado's pedigree, using the adage, return to the best of the sire's dam. Halo's damsire line is Cosmic Bomb- Pharamond II out of Selene.
Saint Ballado's dam Ballade, her sire line Herbager, Vandale, Plassy, BOSWORTH. And who is Bosworth? He is is Selene's 1/2 brother!
Now let's look at Halo Najib http://www.pedigreequery.com/halo+najib
Look at his 5th dam's sir: Cochise-Boswell-Bosworth, returns to Halo's damsire Cosmic Bomb-Pharamond-Selene: 1/2 to Bosworth.
Let's look at other Halo Najib returns to Halo's damsire line.
Natalma-Native Dancer-Polynesian-Unbreakable-Sickle full brother to Halo's sire line Pharamond II.
Nijinsky's damline: Flaring Top-by Menow-Pharamond II.
Forli-Aristophanes-Hyperion; 1/2 brother to Pharamond II
Fast Turn-Cherokee Rose-The Squaw-Sickle; full brother to Pharamond II.
Go down a list of Halo's chief earners, Saint Ballado's chief earners, The sons of Halo and the Son's of Saint Ballado's chief earners and you will find returns to Pharamond II, his full brother, his 1/2 brother and his dam's 1/2 brother.
Having a couple of well bred sons of Saint Ballado; Popular and Gotham City, nearby to where I live, I first noticed there seemed to be an affinity to Tom Fool in the pedigrees of Gotham City's chief earners, King City Kitty-4x4 Tom Fool-Menow-Pharamond II.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+bat+signal
I kept wondering why these Halo's, Saint Ballado's like Tom Rolfe-Pocahontas-How-The Squaw by Pharamond II.
Let's look at Popular's top runner
http://www.pedigreequery.com/halo+dolly2
Arabia- Look at that, you pick up Pharamond and his full brother Sickle in her sire Damasus, and you pick up their 1/2 brother Hyperion in her dam Christmas Wind.
Alydar-Every RAN leads to Sickle, full brother to Pharamond II.
Priceless Fame- Brings a Menow by Pharamond II through a daugher.
Three Red Bells- Brings Hyperion, 1/2 brother to Pharamond II.
Halo My Darlin- By Halo-Cosmah-Cosmic Bomb-Pharamond II.
That's why these Halo horse LOVE returns to Halo, it brings back returns to Halo's broodmare sireline;PHARAMOND II!!!!!
Then the Val De L'Orne in Halo Dolly's pedigree, any significance there? He brings another line of Vandale-Plassy-Bosworth; 1/2 brother to Selene, dam of Pharamond II.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/fanny+chenal
Tom Fool through Buckpasser, Tom Fool through Tim Tam.
Don't take my word for it, start looking at the best runners of the Halo, Saint Ballado clan, you'll notice they like Buckpasser, don't be fooled, it's not just the Buckpasser, it's the Tom Fool, Menow, Pharamond II that comes with it. Start looking for the lines to Pharamond II in their best runners and you'll see a pattern.
Your mare Piney is a genetic gem, that double Cosmah-Cosmic Bomb-Pharamond II is just begging for a return to a Halo sire line.
Every Northern Dancer cross returns a Selene through Hyperion on the top and a Selene through Sickle on the bottom.
wgc517, you knew there was something special about Pining's pedigree when you bought her, you had very good instincts, you picked a good one. I hope you keep her and breed her to a Halo line, best of luck whatever you do.
Jeff
Halo Najib? Seriously? You must be joking. He got FOUR MARES, 2 LIVE foals reported in 2010 and THREE mares in 2011, cannot tell if he had any live foals. Gosh, if the farm he was standing at believed in him you would think THEY would have sent at least a few mares to him since he spent the season hanging out in the paddock.
I'm a bit perplexed how you could suggest THIS particular stallion to anyone? He was owned by ZAYAT and he sure has plenty of mares of all ages and abilities and if he doesn't think much of the stallion, what does he know that we don't?
There are very few who have been so clearly unsupported as this stallion. If you want people to believe your suggestions at least provide some kind of reason as to what would make any of his foals viable in the sales ring.
I'm a bit perplexed how you could suggest THIS particular stallion to anyone? He was owned by ZAYAT and he sure has plenty of mares of all ages and abilities and if he doesn't think much of the stallion, what does he know that we don't?
There are very few who have been so clearly unsupported as this stallion. If you want people to believe your suggestions at least provide some kind of reason as to what would make any of his foals viable in the sales ring.
Halo's not a real popular sire line these days, but anyone looking at how they love returns to Pharmond II/ Selene will certainly give a Halo line a try.
Especially when they've got a Pharamond II loaded mare.
I predict Halo Najib to do well as a stallion in the Mid Atlantic region, and he's a good match for the mare requested; Pining.
Tapiano, if you've got a match for the mare then state him, please don't waste space attacking my recommendation, I believe it's against the forum rules.
Jeff
Especially when they've got a Pharamond II loaded mare.
I predict Halo Najib to do well as a stallion in the Mid Atlantic region, and he's a good match for the mare requested; Pining.
Tapiano, if you've got a match for the mare then state him, please don't waste space attacking my recommendation, I believe it's against the forum rules.
Jeff
Ask your vet to cuture her and ask if she needs stitching.
Older mares sometimes change and stitching is the only way to keep them clean.
Also, I think you can buy a generic bottle of Regumate that, coupled with the lights, will help you get an early foal..
Just remember there was a Forty Niner mare, listed in the Sales section last week.
griff
Older mares sometimes change and stitching is the only way to keep them clean.
Also, I think you can buy a generic bottle of Regumate that, coupled with the lights, will help you get an early foal..
Just remember there was a Forty Niner mare, listed in the Sales section last week.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Let's put all Japanese prejudice aside. Sunday Silence; the #1 sire in the world of all time in progeny earnings.
Let's look at his pedigree;
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sunday+silence
Let's look at returns to Halo's damsire line; Pharamond II.
Let's see, we've got a Hyperion, 1/2 brother to Pharamond II there.
Let's see, we've got Hillary http://www.pedigreequery.com/hillary
3X3 Selene and her 1/2 brother Bosworth.
Gee, I see a pattern here. Marcellina, another line to Minoru sire of Selene, dam of Pharamond II, Sickle, Hyperion.
Huh.
Two great sires, Sunday Silence and Saint Ballado have something in common, that line of Selene's 1/2 brother Bosworth.
Halo Najib also carries a line of Bosworth. So Tappiano, before you badmouth the good Stakes Winner and graded stakes placed winner of over 377,000 dollars Halo Najib, when he's only got 2 foals on the ground, maybe it's a little early to start trashing him. Since you started trashing him early for no good cause, do me a favor, reach up an slap your face a couple of times for insulting the horse out of hand.
Jeff
Let's look at his pedigree;
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sunday+silence
Let's look at returns to Halo's damsire line; Pharamond II.
Let's see, we've got a Hyperion, 1/2 brother to Pharamond II there.
Let's see, we've got Hillary http://www.pedigreequery.com/hillary
3X3 Selene and her 1/2 brother Bosworth.
Gee, I see a pattern here. Marcellina, another line to Minoru sire of Selene, dam of Pharamond II, Sickle, Hyperion.
Huh.
Two great sires, Sunday Silence and Saint Ballado have something in common, that line of Selene's 1/2 brother Bosworth.
Halo Najib also carries a line of Bosworth. So Tappiano, before you badmouth the good Stakes Winner and graded stakes placed winner of over 377,000 dollars Halo Najib, when he's only got 2 foals on the ground, maybe it's a little early to start trashing him. Since you started trashing him early for no good cause, do me a favor, reach up an slap your face a couple of times for insulting the horse out of hand.
Jeff
Thank you all for the input so far. Please continue to post. No hostility, just good opinions. We are all on here to learn and share....
Yes I really like the breeding of this mare but it seems she just has had bad luck and sometimes that can continue. Jeff thank you for all of your input, I appreciate the depth of it.
Would I be better off to try and buy a mare in for for 5 to 10k or is she that well bred that I should try again? I love the tail line to Almahmoud. Part of me agrees with Barcaldine and Madelyn and thinks I should cull her but I look at the page and I just can't believe nothing has hit.
I guess when you question yourself this much it might be time to say adios...
Yes I really like the breeding of this mare but it seems she just has had bad luck and sometimes that can continue. Jeff thank you for all of your input, I appreciate the depth of it.
Would I be better off to try and buy a mare in for for 5 to 10k or is she that well bred that I should try again? I love the tail line to Almahmoud. Part of me agrees with Barcaldine and Madelyn and thinks I should cull her but I look at the page and I just can't believe nothing has hit.
I guess when you question yourself this much it might be time to say adios...
If there is no black type within two or three generations it won't matter what you want to breed to. Commercially that foal would have very limited appeal to the buyers unless it were a truly outstanding physical.
The state of the market today is not what it was. Take a look at the yearling sale from Ocala from this week and the Fasig Tipton sale from last October and look at how many sires had yearlings who did not even sell for the stud fee. These are two sales that rely less on page and more on physicals.
You can get a far better mare with black type in the first two generations from the Kee November sale for that same 10-15K who will already be in foal. If you don't want the foal, send it to the following November's sale and if you can get that same amount then the mare has been paid for.
The state of the market today is not what it was. Take a look at the yearling sale from Ocala from this week and the Fasig Tipton sale from last October and look at how many sires had yearlings who did not even sell for the stud fee. These are two sales that rely less on page and more on physicals.
You can get a far better mare with black type in the first two generations from the Kee November sale for that same 10-15K who will already be in foal. If you don't want the foal, send it to the following November's sale and if you can get that same amount then the mare has been paid for.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/san+telmo3
Pining's 1/2 brother by Southern Halo, her dam's best runner.
Pining bred to Halo line would be even higher Octane.
Jeff
Pining's 1/2 brother by Southern Halo, her dam's best runner.
Pining bred to Halo line would be even higher Octane.
Jeff
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Barcaldine
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 634
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:55 pm
- Location: KY
I see where you paid only $1200 for her at public sale. That is a good indication of what the market thinks of her. What is more important, however, is that her foals sold for even less. The Bernstein filly RNA'd at $1,500, and the Quiet American sold for $1,000.
Clearly this mare needs to find a new home. Cut your losses and look for a younger and better conformed mare with good black type up close. Be patient because these gems take some time to find. It's far too easy to buy, and then keep feeding for years, stock that has no chance of even paying for itself.
Clearly this mare needs to find a new home. Cut your losses and look for a younger and better conformed mare with good black type up close. Be patient because these gems take some time to find. It's far too easy to buy, and then keep feeding for years, stock that has no chance of even paying for itself.