Need advice on open Mare

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kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:54 pm

Fireslam wrote:Kimberly Mine, the only good thing about beating your head against the wall, is that it feels so good when you stop.


I don't care about the troll under the bridge--this billy goat DOES care in case the original poster is still reading.

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:30 pm

kimberley mine wrote:
Fireslam wrote:Kimberly Mine, the only good thing about beating your head against the wall, is that it feels so good when you stop.


I don't care about the troll under the bridge--this billy goat DOES care in case the original poster is still reading.

Hi Kimberley,
I don't think any poster in this entire thread advised the OP to hang on to Pining given his plans as a commercial breeder selling for profit. Pining simply became an interesting discussion within the discussion...that evolved due to her unique breeding showing two RF's within her 5 generation pedigree. That is quite rare to find in a pedigree. On the other hand, if the OP was breeding to race, I would have advised him to bite the bullet and carry her till next breeding season. Provided he could come up with an affordable sire that would create the RF to Cosmah within that foal. Pining has had 3 foals, only one to race...the jury is still out on the other two....one is in Peru and the other is still a baby. So she is yet to be proven a worthless mare and no one, so far, took advantage of that unique pedigree. TJ

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:47 pm

i agree with TJ.

jm
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.

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karenkarenn
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Postby karenkarenn » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:02 pm

Did it occure to anyone that this family line has already been bred to More than Ready and Saint Ballado and neither of the two colts have made more than one win. And yes they did have more than one Cosmah......... HOWEVER to the OP --- have you ever thought about Aflet Alex -- its shown good results in the family.
K

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karenkarenn
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Postby karenkarenn » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:22 pm

And if you look back the person that bred Roaise had Cosmah dam three times in the pedigree - this horse is related to Pining by Allison's dance. Pining 's Great Dam. So here we have a family ( even with True Love being bred to More than Ready and Saint Balado) trying to put the halo or Cosmah or Almahoud in and yet there isn't much success.
I would say stay away from adding more Cosmah because its already tried.
I am trying to find something that would work. I am not bashing Pining I just think that there is something that had been misssed.

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:27 am

karenkarenn wrote:And if you look back the person that bred Roaise had Cosmah dam three times in the pedigree - this horse is related to Pining by Allison's dance. Pining 's Great Dam. So here we have a family ( even with True Love being bred to More than Ready and Saint Balado) trying to put the halo or Cosmah or Almahoud in and yet there isn't much success.
I would say stay away from adding more Cosmah because its already tried.
I am trying to find something that would work. I am not bashing Pining I just think that there is something that had been misssed.


Hi Karen,
It may have all ready been tried in similar mares/foals....but not with Pining, so I have to believe it could be a worth a try. The problem with getting too close with Almahmoud and Cosmah is that they are known to be a bit nasty and could make getting them to the races a bit tougher. That's what I like about Pining, the Cosmah RF would be 5x5 and the Almahmoud RF would no longer be present in the foal as it would appear 6x6 in her baby. TJ

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Postby TJ » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:37 am

my error
Last edited by TJ on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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karenkarenn
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Postby karenkarenn » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:17 am

yeah but the problem is all the line breding and inbreeding. Why not stick with the Holy Bull like tried before get some outcrossing.

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Postby TJ » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:51 am

karenkarenn wrote:yeah but the problem is all the line breding and inbreeding. Why not stick with the Holy Bull like tried before get some outcrossing.


Hi Karen,
Surely you have a point and there have been many types of crosses that produce a good horse...inbreeding to sires, outcrossing as you mention...but so many times you hear, when speaking of mating's and breeding pattern's, that the mares aren't entering into the equation and only the stallions are considered. Although your example of Holy Bull doesn't represent an outcross....he is inbred to stallion's Mahmoud (4x5) and Questionaire (5x5).
This is what I like about the RF as it takes the great mares into consideration (as our own respected poster Bill from WA's work has done) and could possibly help give that mares bloodline a slightly better chance to reproduce itself. Inbreeding to stallions creates a broad spectrum of possibility's as there are so many foals (good and bad) produced by these great stallions. Inbreeding to good producing mares may help pinpoint what you are looking for, since mares produce many times less foals in their entire lifetime than a stallion will produce in just a single season. TJ

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Postby Jeff » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:00 am

TJ,

I agree with you, the linebreeding has been just a bit overdone in Pinings recent female family, but will be far enough back in her progeny to be a more productive influence, you have to wait several generations for linebreeding, Rome wasn't built in a day. Jeff

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Postby TJ » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:28 am

Jeff wrote:TJ,

I agree with you, the linebreeding has been just a bit overdone in Pinings recent female family, but will be far enough back in her progeny to be a more productive influence, you have to wait several generations for linebreeding, Rome wasn't built in a day. Jeff


Hi Jeff,
Linebreeding and the RF are not quite the same....linebreeding usually occurs after the 4th generation where as the RF is contained within the 5 generation pedigree of an individual. If it appears in the 6th generation that horse doesn't have the RF, yet he could be linebred.
We'll agree to disagree concerning trolls entering this conversation...as I don't consider a difference of opinion, which other poster's may have on a subject....qualifies them to be a troll. A difference of opinion is valuable in a conversation otherwise there's no need for the converstaion...I'm an old dog and love to learn new tricks:>) TJ

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Postby Jeff » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:54 pm

TJ,
RF most certainly is linebreeding, just strictly through a female within 5 generatioms.

Jeff

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Postby Bohemia » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:56 am

Hi TJ, there's another old adage that fits perfectly here: A difference of opinion is what makes a horse race.

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Postby TJ » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:03 am

Jeff wrote:TJ,
RF most certainly is linebreeding, just strictly through a female within 5 generatioms.

Jeff


Hi Jeff,
One of the distinctions (specific to TB breeder's as this differ's from livestock breeders) between being inbred or linebred is that linebreeding occurs outside the 4th generation of a pedigree....beyond the boundaries of a qualifying RF. Inbreeding occurs within the first 5 generations. Therefore the RF dams could be considered inbred in a pedigree (as noted in color codes that denotes inbreeding in the PQ pedigree profiles), but not linebred. TJ

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Postby Jeff » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:53 am

TJ,

We're talking about thoroughbred race horse breeding, we're not talking about cows TJ :idea:. Historically, breeders won't linebreed closer than 3X4 for a racehorse because historically, going closer than that results in horses that don't win races.

Generally, linebreeding in horses is done 4X4 and back.

Linebreeding/Inbreeding, want to be insulting you call in inbreeding, want to be polite you call it linebreeding.

Jeff