http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41736
Kinda interesting that an Irish trainer is now whining about the track surfaces.
BC Should be all turf
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
I don't think so. If all the tracks in the US go poly that might happen. But I don't see it happening.
The tracks in California were to hard and to fast, something had to be done. Horses breakdown on Poly surfaces too.
The Breeders Cup was formulated in the US and a good many of our nice horses don't like the poly, but love the dirt. If he has horses he thinks would do better off of the turf, then he needs to send them across the pond and let them get used to dirt.
winds
The tracks in California were to hard and to fast, something had to be done. Horses breakdown on Poly surfaces too.
The Breeders Cup was formulated in the US and a good many of our nice horses don't like the poly, but love the dirt. If he has horses he thinks would do better off of the turf, then he needs to send them across the pond and let them get used to dirt.
winds
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Tucumcari
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Not all synthetics are fast, and they do change with temperature. Del Mar was painfully slow. Cushion is fast to normal (now)
Proverbs 31:8
"...stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all those who are destitute.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawYXs2e ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIASWv9GYC8
"...stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all those who are destitute.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawYXs2e ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIASWv9GYC8
I'd personally prefer it if Churchill, Pimlico and Belmont stayed dirt..and Saratoga... hmm.. and if we can save her, Hialeah. What other tracks do you think ought to try to keep with tradition? I just think the Triple Crown would forever have an asterisk and horses that might otherwise have won might hate Poly (I'm not sure what I prefer but I've heard more good about Cushion).. of course if they only prep on Poly everywhere else that'd be a problem too.. I say a balance is good and certainly one where the morning/afternoon differences aren't so dramatic.
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"
Fairgrounds should stay dirt. I don't know how it is since Katrina, however it used to be one of the best surfaces in the country.
I wish there were someway to save Hialeah… I am so incredibly glad we made an effort to go to the races there prior to it being shuttered, however seeing its grandeur in person makes its demise even more sorrowful.
I'm not sure I can totally agree about Churchill. Actually, let me rephrase that... I can agree to leave Churchill dirt if Churchill will agree to not alter their surface for their big weeks. They claim they don't and they have gotten better over the last couple years, however in the early 2000's during Derby week, they had the surface so tight lots of critters were coming back sore, with shins, and with all sorts of other ailments. I asked our trainer about it and he simply said, "... I just had a $25,000 claimer almost break the track record... you figure it out..." I might add he was disgusted...
Why do we even care what some Irish trainer thinks? Last I checked there are turf options... and good ones. It is a shame GW broke down, but he ran in the Classic last year. Giant's Causeway ran a bang-up race in the Classic... and furthered his reputation because of it. I don't hear Baffert bitching because they run the Irish Derby on a weirdly configured course featuring an uphill final climb to the finish.
Someone will always complain... of course, he certainly did not comment on the difference in purses in the US and Europe...
I am a little tired of the negative attitude about North American racing. While I agree that we have major issues without uniform rules and the drug use isn't doing anyone any good, overall I don't see racing in N.A. being inferior to any other. Let's see... the top barns in Europe are easily as hard on stock as those here (especially in training). Europe gave us Biancone. Recently elite jocks were under investigation for race fixing. It is rumored that designer drug use is more active and actually exported from there. And, on the whole, the purses are not good... not good enough to support a business plan, so the sport is almost exclusively the domain of the wealthy.
Sure we have issues... but so does everyone. By the way... I actually often root for the Euro horses... and I count Daylami's win at Gulfstream as one of my all time favorites. I even like Dettori. I just don't know why we should care about what some Irish trainer thinks... I think the men and boys have already been separated... did he send his top 2 yr. old to contest the new BC 2 yr. old turf?
Okay... I feel better...
I wish there were someway to save Hialeah… I am so incredibly glad we made an effort to go to the races there prior to it being shuttered, however seeing its grandeur in person makes its demise even more sorrowful.
I'm not sure I can totally agree about Churchill. Actually, let me rephrase that... I can agree to leave Churchill dirt if Churchill will agree to not alter their surface for their big weeks. They claim they don't and they have gotten better over the last couple years, however in the early 2000's during Derby week, they had the surface so tight lots of critters were coming back sore, with shins, and with all sorts of other ailments. I asked our trainer about it and he simply said, "... I just had a $25,000 claimer almost break the track record... you figure it out..." I might add he was disgusted...
Why do we even care what some Irish trainer thinks? Last I checked there are turf options... and good ones. It is a shame GW broke down, but he ran in the Classic last year. Giant's Causeway ran a bang-up race in the Classic... and furthered his reputation because of it. I don't hear Baffert bitching because they run the Irish Derby on a weirdly configured course featuring an uphill final climb to the finish.
Someone will always complain... of course, he certainly did not comment on the difference in purses in the US and Europe...
I am a little tired of the negative attitude about North American racing. While I agree that we have major issues without uniform rules and the drug use isn't doing anyone any good, overall I don't see racing in N.A. being inferior to any other. Let's see... the top barns in Europe are easily as hard on stock as those here (especially in training). Europe gave us Biancone. Recently elite jocks were under investigation for race fixing. It is rumored that designer drug use is more active and actually exported from there. And, on the whole, the purses are not good... not good enough to support a business plan, so the sport is almost exclusively the domain of the wealthy.
Sure we have issues... but so does everyone. By the way... I actually often root for the Euro horses... and I count Daylami's win at Gulfstream as one of my all time favorites. I even like Dettori. I just don't know why we should care about what some Irish trainer thinks... I think the men and boys have already been separated... did he send his top 2 yr. old to contest the new BC 2 yr. old turf?
Okay... I feel better...
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nferro9925
- Grade III Winner
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I thought it was an after thought that the track was being blamed for GW's breakdown.
You run a turf horse for the first time on a sloppy track and backwards
and its the track's fault.
I love the dirt tracks, but they need to be kept in good condition.
I am not sure if poly if the answer-all to racing.
You run a turf horse for the first time on a sloppy track and backwards
and its the track's fault.
I love the dirt tracks, but they need to be kept in good condition.
I am not sure if poly if the answer-all to racing.
Re: BC Should be all turf
nferro9925 wrote:http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41736
Kinda interesting that an Irish trainer is now whining about the track surfaces.
Keep in mind what a bunch of pussies the Euros are. These are the same people that call soccer football. As for GW.... he wasn't handling the track at all and the rider continued to ride him which made no sense and he eventually broke down. I'm not blaming the rider what with a $5 mil purse and all he was in a no win situation.. but..... Why they insisted on running a turf horse in the mud made little sense and the owner / trainer are to blame if anyone is (though I'm not blaming them either as breakdowns happen like it or not).
Now, for this Irish trainer to go off as though he knows something is pretty controversial and I smell an agenda with this a$$whole. I suspect the trainer of GW was one of his buddies or he has some other connection/agenda in all this(kickback on polytrack or the like). Cripes horses break down on turf courses all the time as well(see: first race at Saratoga this summer).
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geowarrior
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As I've said on another thread the jockey was riding him hard, but I don't think it was obvious to him that the horse was about to break down, and what he expressed was admiration that the horse stayed standing to be pulled up and as he put it, saved him from falling.
Turf horses often take better to a sloppy track rather than a firm one, and George did put in a creditable performance with a bad trip in last year's Classic, so although I personally would have run him on his best surface at his best distance, I can't say I blame O'Brien for running him in the Classic.
As for the idea of kickback on Polytrack or being buddies with Aiden O'Brien, I imagine Bolger (who has made some fairly bold moves with horses himself) knows O'Brien, as everybody in the British/Irish racing world does. We've got three types of artificial track currently competing in the U.S., so advocating Poly won't do him any good if Cushion actually gets the best rep. from those who race on it. The people in Britain and Ireland are grieving for Gorgeous George, a flashy superstar who drew admiration and attention wherever he went. They want someone to blame. There was plenty of blame flung around when Barbaro broke down. Let them grieve.
Oh and by the way I'm a Euro, and I call soccer 'football'. To me it seems reasonable since it is a game unlike American 'football' where the foot is actually in contact with the ball for a good portion of the game.
Turf horses often take better to a sloppy track rather than a firm one, and George did put in a creditable performance with a bad trip in last year's Classic, so although I personally would have run him on his best surface at his best distance, I can't say I blame O'Brien for running him in the Classic.
As for the idea of kickback on Polytrack or being buddies with Aiden O'Brien, I imagine Bolger (who has made some fairly bold moves with horses himself) knows O'Brien, as everybody in the British/Irish racing world does. We've got three types of artificial track currently competing in the U.S., so advocating Poly won't do him any good if Cushion actually gets the best rep. from those who race on it. The people in Britain and Ireland are grieving for Gorgeous George, a flashy superstar who drew admiration and attention wherever he went. They want someone to blame. There was plenty of blame flung around when Barbaro broke down. Let them grieve.
Oh and by the way I'm a Euro, and I call soccer 'football'. To me it seems reasonable since it is a game unlike American 'football' where the foot is actually in contact with the ball for a good portion of the game.
Okay Geo... I must admit I've always thought North American football was misnamed... and that it did, in fact, make more sense to call soccer "football". The only problem would be in finding a name for the North American version of football. (Of course now we have Aussie Rules... and Canadian Football... so the ship has probably sailed and we are stuck with what we have.)
I'll also grant that the Euro's are mourning the loss of GW and looking to displace blame. However, the statements made were actually somewhat ridiculous. The more I think about it the more irrelevant our Irish friend seems. The world isn't going to change for him and I'm guessing our good friends with the Breeders Cup and NTRA could care less what he thinks. Bottom line, if the BC is at Churchill or Belmont anytime soon, the Classic, (and the other non-turf races), will be run on dirt.
I'll also grant that the Euro's are mourning the loss of GW and looking to displace blame. However, the statements made were actually somewhat ridiculous. The more I think about it the more irrelevant our Irish friend seems. The world isn't going to change for him and I'm guessing our good friends with the Breeders Cup and NTRA could care less what he thinks. Bottom line, if the BC is at Churchill or Belmont anytime soon, the Classic, (and the other non-turf races), will be run on dirt.
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Rokeby Forever
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The Patriots and the Colts play football. Manchester United plays kickball. Case closed.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
I don't see anything controversial in what he says. Firstly the title of the thread is very misleading as he did not say that the BC should be all turf.
Secondly it is proven beyond doubt that polytrack (or equivalent) leads to less breakdowns than traditional dirt. Is that not a laudable objective?
Thirdly why shouldn't racing go clean? In athletics isnt an Olympic games winner tarnished if they are found to have used drugs? To me a BC winner on drugs (within the rules) is less praiseworthy than a 'clean' one. I think there is a definite link between drug use /breeding from stallions who can only perform on drugs and the soundness/durability issues that are raised so often on these forums.
Secondly it is proven beyond doubt that polytrack (or equivalent) leads to less breakdowns than traditional dirt. Is that not a laudable objective?
Thirdly why shouldn't racing go clean? In athletics isnt an Olympic games winner tarnished if they are found to have used drugs? To me a BC winner on drugs (within the rules) is less praiseworthy than a 'clean' one. I think there is a definite link between drug use /breeding from stallions who can only perform on drugs and the soundness/durability issues that are raised so often on these forums.
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nferro9925
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I am a little astonished about some phrases in this thread like "Keep in mind what a bunch of pussies the Euros are" etc.
The best posting ist about the (possible) blame of A P O'Brien the GW is not running on the beste track for him, on turf in the mile. But he was also going about 1m 2 f in the Eclipse stakes in GB.
The american horse racing has a different tradition to the europeans have - you have dirt and we have turf traditon. But th BC-Commitee itself claims that BC ist the world championship of horse racing. Well it could be, but that means also that all participants have nearly the same chance. The tracks between Europe an US are small one 7f around for turf in Monmouth park - 15f around in Ascot or Longchamp on turf. I am not sure, but I think, also for american standard, MP ist a very small track one time around and this prefers american horses against the europeans.
I Think, the americans do well, if they think about more equal opportunity when they choice the track for the next BC - not so narrow. If polytrack is better than dirt - I am not sure because of too small experience but if dirt is very wet, the horses pass through to the ground and that cannot be good for the legs
And the drug question. When I stayed in the US, I have seen, that it was quite normal that horses go racing with Bute and Lasix. In my point of view a derby winner with drugs is nothing, is the same clas like a horse which wins a low clas handicap without drugs. And in this point, I agree complete with the Irish trainer Mr. Bolger. That's an issue about the americans has to tink in my point of view.
At the end it was a sad accident of GW with no direct blame of everyone and ervery thing and after the race everyone is shifter than before.
Sorrys for my bad english, but I am german.
v. Bluecher
The best posting ist about the (possible) blame of A P O'Brien the GW is not running on the beste track for him, on turf in the mile. But he was also going about 1m 2 f in the Eclipse stakes in GB.
The american horse racing has a different tradition to the europeans have - you have dirt and we have turf traditon. But th BC-Commitee itself claims that BC ist the world championship of horse racing. Well it could be, but that means also that all participants have nearly the same chance. The tracks between Europe an US are small one 7f around for turf in Monmouth park - 15f around in Ascot or Longchamp on turf. I am not sure, but I think, also for american standard, MP ist a very small track one time around and this prefers american horses against the europeans.
I Think, the americans do well, if they think about more equal opportunity when they choice the track for the next BC - not so narrow. If polytrack is better than dirt - I am not sure because of too small experience but if dirt is very wet, the horses pass through to the ground and that cannot be good for the legs
And the drug question. When I stayed in the US, I have seen, that it was quite normal that horses go racing with Bute and Lasix. In my point of view a derby winner with drugs is nothing, is the same clas like a horse which wins a low clas handicap without drugs. And in this point, I agree complete with the Irish trainer Mr. Bolger. That's an issue about the americans has to tink in my point of view.
At the end it was a sad accident of GW with no direct blame of everyone and ervery thing and after the race everyone is shifter than before.
Sorrys for my bad english, but I am german.
v. Bluecher
