horses and people can improve their health and take in less calories & more good stuff with proper diet. And not be hungry.
Google "FORKS OVER KNIVES" and view the trailer, or better yet pull up FORKS OVER KNIVES on NetFlix and view the entire video.
I have lost 57 lbs, total cholesterol was 180 plus and is now < 110 and my BP last friday was 117/54. And I'm older than dirt.
horse diet and health is probably OK here but I do realize FOK is not in keeping with this tend and should probably only take questions by PM.
griff
Factors Leading to Injuries and Breakdowns
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
More on topic:
SmartPac has two ulcer supplements. One for front end ulcers and one for hind end ulcers.
I suspect both are better at preventing than curing and will never take the place of UlcerGurad but both cost about a buck a day and SmartPac rotates what they ship me every other month.
Can't say if the SmartPac stuff is doing any good or not but both horses running and in training seem to be doing OK.
griff
SmartPac has two ulcer supplements. One for front end ulcers and one for hind end ulcers.
I suspect both are better at preventing than curing and will never take the place of UlcerGurad but both cost about a buck a day and SmartPac rotates what they ship me every other month.
Can't say if the SmartPac stuff is doing any good or not but both horses running and in training seem to be doing OK.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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ratherrapid
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Casallc--i once had a bleeder win a race by 20 lengths on lasix. why would this horse be on the meat wagon instead of the race track. And, would u explain exactly what it is that you believe loss of minerals from urinating does to bone structure. how is this different than normal urination except there's more of it over a short period. if calcium, magnesium etc. r in fact excreted, what happens when u give the horse a flake of alfalfa after the race?
as to ulcers--to me this just speaks to lack of care and ignorance. there are things out there on the back stretch that need to be changed. look at the lastest Joe Drape article on Doug O'Neill. lasix argument distracts from what's important. my guess--if those Derby runners last sat.--on a hot humid day--had raced without lasix, half of them would have bled. minimally.
as to ulcers--to me this just speaks to lack of care and ignorance. there are things out there on the back stretch that need to be changed. look at the lastest Joe Drape article on Doug O'Neill. lasix argument distracts from what's important. my guess--if those Derby runners last sat.--on a hot humid day--had raced without lasix, half of them would have bled. minimally.
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Barcaldine
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Pedigree, conformation and environment. And a bonus point for temperament.
Certain families (male and female) are prone to weaknesses of bone, joint and conformational defects. Attributes like back-at-the-knee, offset joints (especially when only one leg is affected), short or long pasterns, weak hocks, bad feet, fine bone, etc., often lead to premature and chronic unsoundness, especially when the upper bodies are loaded.
The manner in which horses are raised also plays a large part in racetrack life span. From pre-natal diet and exercise, to the degree of sales prep employed, breeders can make or break their foals' chances by not providing the very best environment for them. In my experience horses raised in small paddocks, with little or no good grass, with bad water and imbalanced diets, and pushed too fast, too early in sales prep (yearling and 2yo), often reap for their owners what has been sown by their breeders. That's why if I were a yearling buyer I would do my due diligence on the breeder's stewardship of his young horses.
Other factors like vets, trainers and farriers all have a profound impact on a horse's longevity as a racehorse.
Horses with bad attitudes, flightiness or sheer stupidity seem to find ways to get injured. Everyone likes the look of an eagle in his horse, but not when it's running around loose in the stable area after breaking away from it's groom.
Certain families (male and female) are prone to weaknesses of bone, joint and conformational defects. Attributes like back-at-the-knee, offset joints (especially when only one leg is affected), short or long pasterns, weak hocks, bad feet, fine bone, etc., often lead to premature and chronic unsoundness, especially when the upper bodies are loaded.
The manner in which horses are raised also plays a large part in racetrack life span. From pre-natal diet and exercise, to the degree of sales prep employed, breeders can make or break their foals' chances by not providing the very best environment for them. In my experience horses raised in small paddocks, with little or no good grass, with bad water and imbalanced diets, and pushed too fast, too early in sales prep (yearling and 2yo), often reap for their owners what has been sown by their breeders. That's why if I were a yearling buyer I would do my due diligence on the breeder's stewardship of his young horses.
Other factors like vets, trainers and farriers all have a profound impact on a horse's longevity as a racehorse.
Horses with bad attitudes, flightiness or sheer stupidity seem to find ways to get injured. Everyone likes the look of an eagle in his horse, but not when it's running around loose in the stable area after breaking away from it's groom.
ratherrapid wrote:Casallc--i once had a bleeder win a race by 20 lengths on lasix. why would this horse be on the meat wagon instead of the race track. And, would u explain exactly what it is that you believe loss of minerals from urinating does to bone structure. how is this different than normal urination except there's more of it over a short period. if calcium, magnesium etc. r in fact excreted, what happens when u give the horse a flake of alfalfa after the race?
as to ulcers--to me this just speaks to lack of care and ignorance. there are things out there on the back stretch that need to be changed. look at the lastest Joe Drape article on Doug O'Neill. lasix argument distracts from what's important. my guess--if those Derby runners last sat.--on a hot humid day--had raced without lasix, half of them would have bled. minimally.
Yes bleeders win all the time on lasix; I have never argued that lasix doesn't help bleeders. What I am saying is lasix has become a crutch this country. There is no way you will convince me that every race horse in America is a bleeder and none everywhere else in the world. Neither will you convince me that this epidemic of bleeders came on like the plague in the 70's when a vet gave it to a horse and thought it worked. I don't think we need to be breeding horses that need crutches. As long as bleeders are not only tolerated but encouraged by the ridiculous standard for getting on the lasix list horses will continue to get weaker. Lasix is quick fix for a problem that might be better managed in other ways. I think you will admit that most horses on lasix aren’t really bleeders.
I'm not a doctor (nor do I play one on TV) so I can't really explain just how lasix robs the minerals from the bones but if you read the links in the previous post " Foes of Lasix are Cruel to Horses? Ridiculous Nonsense!" it does a good job explaining it. Body builders use lasix because they get better muscle definition with it but they keel over all the time from dehydration. They might look healthy but they are walking time bombs.
We will be in agreement on the ulcer topic. Ulcers are as much due to poor nutrition, confinement and ignorance as anything else. Ulcers can be managed and I think EIPH can too but not as long as lasix is the industry standard.
There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.
- Alexis de Tocqueville
- Alexis de Tocqueville
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ratherrapid
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confinement = ulcers probably a pretty good guess. + bute maybe. I never know how all these dudes horses get ulcers except that daily care fails to meet standards.
As to lasix I always had the only horse in the race without lasix for a good long while. That lasted till I got my first bleeder. then the second. With the bleeders, started to understand and interpret correctly the post race, post breeze coughing. My experience with my bleeders is that once a bleeder always. It gets a little better as they get into condition, but unless u want to retire the horse, u're stuck with using lasix or the equivalent.
I started to use lasix and Xantax for prevention. In my small stable I was unable to afford anybody else turning into a bleeder, and they never again did.
Per Crystal, i'd doubt most with day to day hands on experience are anti-lasix. it's basically just a silly horse detrimental position, and zero offense to those that think otherwise. my bleeder did 40 breezes on grass without bleeding, and first day on the dirt surface, bleeds.
As to the breeding--unless there is evidence that EIPH is genetic--and I'd be shocked to find that it is--breeding would be irrelevant. There's been plenty of research that they almost all bleed to a degree. The THOROGHEDGE link seems to suggest that's ok. However, they bleed in stages, it gets worse, and so, it's light bleeding is other than ok. The additional genetic factor is that today's stock primarily has all the same genes.
My take on lasix is that similar to many issues Horse Racing needs to grow a pair and defend itself. I've never experienced what Crystal did per her post, but there's very little difference in import between light and heavy bleeding. Small fry simply r unable to afford to retire those horses.
As to lasix I always had the only horse in the race without lasix for a good long while. That lasted till I got my first bleeder. then the second. With the bleeders, started to understand and interpret correctly the post race, post breeze coughing. My experience with my bleeders is that once a bleeder always. It gets a little better as they get into condition, but unless u want to retire the horse, u're stuck with using lasix or the equivalent.
I started to use lasix and Xantax for prevention. In my small stable I was unable to afford anybody else turning into a bleeder, and they never again did.
Per Crystal, i'd doubt most with day to day hands on experience are anti-lasix. it's basically just a silly horse detrimental position, and zero offense to those that think otherwise. my bleeder did 40 breezes on grass without bleeding, and first day on the dirt surface, bleeds.
As to the breeding--unless there is evidence that EIPH is genetic--and I'd be shocked to find that it is--breeding would be irrelevant. There's been plenty of research that they almost all bleed to a degree. The THOROGHEDGE link seems to suggest that's ok. However, they bleed in stages, it gets worse, and so, it's light bleeding is other than ok. The additional genetic factor is that today's stock primarily has all the same genes.
My take on lasix is that similar to many issues Horse Racing needs to grow a pair and defend itself. I've never experienced what Crystal did per her post, but there's very little difference in import between light and heavy bleeding. Small fry simply r unable to afford to retire those horses.
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Barcaldine
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My experience with mares which bleed beyond normal levels is that they invariably produce foals which do the same thing. Certainly the vast majority of horses bleed (much depends on the humidity levels) but the bad ones simply soon become chronic and untreatable.
I once bought a very fast stakes placed mare in foal to an obscure stallion raced by their owner. She raced only six times and, I learned later, was retired only because they could not control the bleeding. Her resulting colt, named BANG, was several times stakes placed at two, with no episodes of bleeding. I sent him to a clinic for stem cell replacement in his suspensory and laid him up for nine months. He came back to win his first out at Hollywood Park by six lengths. We took him to Bay Meadows (next to the San Francisco Bay) and was eased in the stretch because he was bleeding through his nostrils and mouth. The jock was literally covered in blood. He was taken to the barn by ambulance.
After some time in the hyperbaric chamber, and six months off, I sent BANG to New Mexico, where the humidity was about 15%, compared to California's 70%. He never bled there again, winning many stakes races (TB and QH-870) and set two track records. I brought him back to California twice; once to finish 2nd in a Grade One 870 stakes at Los Alamitos; then to Santa Anita for the Sunshine Millions. Again, he bled horifically and was off for nine months.
The mares other foals all bled, one never got to the races because of it, and he was meant to be a good one.
Ive had other not so dramatic experiences with foals of bleeders, too. Certain sire lines, like FLEET NASRULLAH and BOLD RULER, were well known as prone to bleeding.
When BANG was treated by Dr Herthel at Alamo Pintado he told me that many bleeders who came in for bad EIPH were offspring of bad bleeders. He was convinced it was a hereditary condition based on hundreds of cases. Until convincing data to the contrary can be proven I share that belief.
If Im looking to purchase a mare or stallion for breeding purposes, as opposed to resell, I dig deep into their past for bleeding information. Usually their old trainers provide good insight.
I once bought a very fast stakes placed mare in foal to an obscure stallion raced by their owner. She raced only six times and, I learned later, was retired only because they could not control the bleeding. Her resulting colt, named BANG, was several times stakes placed at two, with no episodes of bleeding. I sent him to a clinic for stem cell replacement in his suspensory and laid him up for nine months. He came back to win his first out at Hollywood Park by six lengths. We took him to Bay Meadows (next to the San Francisco Bay) and was eased in the stretch because he was bleeding through his nostrils and mouth. The jock was literally covered in blood. He was taken to the barn by ambulance.
After some time in the hyperbaric chamber, and six months off, I sent BANG to New Mexico, where the humidity was about 15%, compared to California's 70%. He never bled there again, winning many stakes races (TB and QH-870) and set two track records. I brought him back to California twice; once to finish 2nd in a Grade One 870 stakes at Los Alamitos; then to Santa Anita for the Sunshine Millions. Again, he bled horifically and was off for nine months.
The mares other foals all bled, one never got to the races because of it, and he was meant to be a good one.
Ive had other not so dramatic experiences with foals of bleeders, too. Certain sire lines, like FLEET NASRULLAH and BOLD RULER, were well known as prone to bleeding.
When BANG was treated by Dr Herthel at Alamo Pintado he told me that many bleeders who came in for bad EIPH were offspring of bad bleeders. He was convinced it was a hereditary condition based on hundreds of cases. Until convincing data to the contrary can be proven I share that belief.
If Im looking to purchase a mare or stallion for breeding purposes, as opposed to resell, I dig deep into their past for bleeding information. Usually their old trainers provide good insight.
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ratherrapid
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Barcldine
I agree information about heavy bleeders would be valuable information for brood mare selection. But how do you find out if a mares was put on Lasix because she was a heavy bleeder or just because the owner/trainer thought Lasix would enhance racing ability?
griff
I agree information about heavy bleeders would be valuable information for brood mare selection. But how do you find out if a mares was put on Lasix because she was a heavy bleeder or just because the owner/trainer thought Lasix would enhance racing ability?
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
ratherrapid wrote:confinement = ulcers probably a pretty good guess. + bute maybe. I never know how all these dudes horses get ulcers except that daily care fails to meet standards.
As to lasix I always had the only horse in the race without lasix for a good long while. That lasted till I got my first bleeder. then the second. With the bleeders, started to understand and interpret correctly the post race, post breeze coughing. My experience with my bleeders is that once a bleeder always. It gets a little better as they get into condition, but unless u want to retire the horse, u're stuck with using lasix or the equivalent.
I started to use lasix and Xantax for prevention. In my small stable I was unable to afford anybody else turning into a bleeder, and they never again did.
Per Crystal, i'd doubt most with day to day hands on experience are anti-lasix. it's basically just a silly horse detrimental position, and zero offense to those that think otherwise. my bleeder did 40 breezes on grass without bleeding, and first day on the dirt surface, bleeds.
As to the breeding--unless there is evidence that EIPH is genetic--and I'd be shocked to find that it is--breeding would be irrelevant. There's been plenty of research that they almost all bleed to a degree. The THOROGHEDGE link seems to suggest that's ok. However, they bleed in stages, it gets worse, and so, it's light bleeding is other than ok. The additional genetic factor is that today's stock primarily has all the same genes.
My take on lasix is that similar to many issues Horse Racing needs to grow a pair and defend itself. I've never experienced what Crystal did per her post, but there's very little difference in import between light and heavy bleeding. Small fry simply r unable to afford to retire those horses.
If the industry needs to "grow a pair and defend itself" it would be hypocritical to try to defend lasix while condemning all other race day meds. Lasix is a performance enhancing drug. Whether you have a bleeder, just want the weight advantage, or the masking effect. I don't know if it was in this thread but I have said it many times - EITHER BAN ALL DRUGS OR QUIT TESTING FOR ANY DRUGS. To allow lasix while forbidding all other performance enhancing or traces of non performance enhancing drugs is the height of hypocrisy and downright unfairness. If a case can be made that just because a horse has EIPH it is alright to give him a drug to help him overcome it - the same case can be made for a lazy horse to get some amphetamine to wake him up. It is the same thing.
I have actually experienced what Crystal did. An owner of a horse I was standing had a filly that set the fastest qualifying time in the Blue Ribbon Futurity in 1981. He was offered $250K for her that day. She came back and ran dead last in the futurity. He sent her to Ruidoso to run in the All American Futurity. After the time trials, she almost bled to death before she got back to the barn - I'm talking buckets of blood, I was there. She never amounted to anything on the track nor did she ever produce a runner - nor the the owner stop regreting not taking the $250K.
Last edited by casallc on Sat May 12, 2012 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.
- Alexis de Tocqueville
- Alexis de Tocqueville
Barcaldine wrote:My experience with mares which bleed beyond normal levels is that they invariably produce foals which do the same thing. Certainly the vast majority of horses bleed (much depends on the humidity levels) but the bad ones simply soon become chronic and untreatable.
I once bought a very fast stakes placed mare in foal to an obscure stallion raced by their owner. She raced only six times and, I learned later, was retired only because they could not control the bleeding. Her resulting colt, named BANG, was several times stakes placed at two, with no episodes of bleeding. I sent him to a clinic for stem cell replacement in his suspensory and laid him up for nine months. He came back to win his first out at Hollywood Park by six lengths. We took him to Bay Meadows (next to the San Francisco Bay) and was eased in the stretch because he was bleeding through his nostrils and mouth. The jock was literally covered in blood. He was taken to the barn by ambulance.
After some time in the hyperbaric chamber, and six months off, I sent BANG to New Mexico, where the humidity was about 15%, compared to California's 70%. He never bled there again, winning many stakes races (TB and QH-870) and set two track records. I brought him back to California twice; once to finish 2nd in a Grade One 870 stakes at Los Alamitos; then to Santa Anita for the Sunshine Millions. Again, he bled horifically and was off for nine months.
The mares other foals all bled, one never got to the races because of it, and he was meant to be a good one.
Ive had other not so dramatic experiences with foals of bleeders, too. Certain sire lines, like FLEET NASRULLAH and BOLD RULER, were well known as prone to bleeding.
When BANG was treated by Dr Herthel at Alamo Pintado he told me that many bleeders who came in for bad EIPH were offspring of bad bleeders. He was convinced it was a hereditary condition based on hundreds of cases. Until convincing data to the contrary can be proven I share that belief.
If Im looking to purchase a mare or stallion for breeding purposes, as opposed to resell, I dig deep into their past for bleeding information. Usually their old trainers provide good insight.
Although I think, personally, you are a condescending blow-hard, I will give you credit when you take time from your insults to actually contribute. I agree with you on the subject of bleeders and hypobaric therapy is probably the most effective of anything we’ve found yet. The problem is,it is expensive and out of reach of most people (and then you have to worry about the chamber blowing up – but if so you won’t have a bleeder anymore).
Notonthesamepage http://www.pedigreequery.com/notonthesamepage is a prime example of the value of a bleeder. He sold last fall for $1000. This horse belonged to Ken and Sarah Ramsey and was highly touted as a KY Derby hopeful. He set the track record at Churchill in his second out at 4.5 furlongs, he ran second in the Tyro Stakes at 2 then won the Spectacular Bid Stakes January of his 3 yr old year, then ran back in the Fountain of Youth. He was out for 2 years with “ankle chip” and brought back last year. They put him in for $15K and Jamie Ness claimed him after running 5th. Jamie ran him back a month later winning, getting his claim price plus a little profit then put him up for sale to unload him quick. I thought the horse would be worth something to breed QH mares and assumed the reason for the fire sale was the ankle. When I called Jamie the horse was already sold to Canada. As it turned out, after researching the horse more I found that he was a big time bleeder and wouldn’t, in good conscience, sell him as a breeding horse.
There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.
- Alexis de Tocqueville
- Alexis de Tocqueville
casallc wrote:Although I think, personally, you are a condescending blow-hard, I will give you credit when you take time from your insults to actually contribute......
Having called out other posters on "name-calling" I have to point out that "blow-hard" is as derogatory as "sucker".
On the subject of heredity, bleeders do, in my opinion, tend to throw bleeders unless the bleeding was an episode (due to a lung infection or some other ailment) rather than a chronic feature of the conformation of that horse's airway so that bleeding just naturally occurs after hard work or a race.
I remember Bang. It is really interesting to get so much more information about that colt. And you, along with the rest of us breeders and horsefolk, seem to learn by "doing" - which can hopefully help others to avoid "our" mistakes
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
madelyn wrote:casallc wrote:Although I think, personally, you are a condescending blow-hard, I will give you credit when you take time from your insults to actually contribute......
Having called out other posters on "name-calling" I have to point out that "blow-hard" is as derogatory as "sucker".
On the subject of heredity, bleeders do, in my opinion, tend to throw bleeders unless the bleeding was an episode (due to a lung infection or some other ailment) rather than a chronic feature of the conformation of that horse's airway so that bleeding just naturally occurs after hard work or a race.
I remember Bang. It is really interesting to get so much more information about that colt. And you, along with the rest of us breeders and horsefolk, seem to learn by "doing" - which can hopefully help others to avoid "our" mistakes
People call me a blow-hard all the time. I don't take offense - I am a blow-hard but I know i can back it up.
There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.
- Alexis de Tocqueville
- Alexis de Tocqueville
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Barcaldine
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Griff,
I generally just pick up the phone and call ex-trainers and owners. The good ones have no problem expanding on their experiences with the horse. Others, like Okie QH trainers with inferiority complexes, usually have a hard time telling the whole truth, unless someone greases their pockets.
You learn in a hurry to separate the truth.
I generally just pick up the phone and call ex-trainers and owners. The good ones have no problem expanding on their experiences with the horse. Others, like Okie QH trainers with inferiority complexes, usually have a hard time telling the whole truth, unless someone greases their pockets.
You learn in a hurry to separate the truth.