Opinion needed - are these two mares the same horse?

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aethervox
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Opinion needed - are these two mares the same horse?

Postby aethervox » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:58 pm

I've been working on a project that involves finding the ages of mares who foaled Derby/Preakness/Belmont horses.

While I was looking for Monomania, who was the dam of 1882 entrant, Monogram (1879), I discovered the following anomaly.

In ASB 2:

MONOMANIA, b. m., foaled --, bred by Dr. J. R. Butler; owned by A. Keene Richards, Blue Grass Park., Scott County, Kentucky. By Lewis' Melbourne.
1st dam Young Utilla by Hurricane (Florizel).
2d dam Utilla by imported Margrave (which see).

Produce--
1872, b. f. Gilt Edge by Gilroy.
1873, -- by War Dance.

In ASB 3:
-sire's name is changed to Melbourne, Jr. (Melbourne, Jr. and Lewis' Melbourne (1860) are the same horse)
-the 1872 b.f. Gilt Edge by Gilroy is changed to 1871 and a 1872 b.f. Lida Laroy by Gilroy is added
-Blue Grass Park is changed to Blue Grass Stud
-the 1873 foal is ch f. Monitress.
added foals:
1874, b. c. Scissors by War Dance.
1875, Barren
1876, ch f. Monopoly by War Dance
1877, b. c. Mammonist by imported Buckden.
1878, -- by imported Buckden.

But when I looked at Young Utilla in ASB 2 and ASB 3, there is no filly named Monomania listed in her produce.

UTILLA (Young), ch. m., foaled 1860, bred by Col. J. R. Butler, of Kentucky; owned in 1872 by J. P. Thom, of Baltimore, Md. By Warfield's Florizel (Hurricane).

1st dam Utilla by imported Margrave.
2d dam Too Soon by Sir Leslie.
3d dam Little Peggy by Gallatin.
4th dam Trumpetta by Hephestion.
5th dam Peggy by imported Bedford (which see).

Produce--
1865, b. f. Tasmania by Melbourne, Jr.
1867, b. c. Doctor Butler by Melbourne, Jr. F. Lowell.
1868, b. c. Gaberlunzie by imported Bonnie Scotland.
1869, b. f. Teetotal by Melbourne, Jr.
1871, ch. f. Hattie by imported Australian.
1872, b. c. by Pimlico.
1873, -- by Pimlico.

In ASB 3:
1871 ch. f. is renamed Hattie Howard
1872 b. c. is named Denver
1873 foal is b. c. Arapaho by Pimlico.
added:
1874 ch. c. Tonkaway by Dick Jackson
1876 b. f. Utilleto by Pimlico
1877, b. f. by Pimlico

So I looked up Tasmania and found:

In ASB 2:

TASMANIA, b. m., foaled 1865, bred by Dr. Butler; owned by A. Keene Richards, Blue Grass Park, Kentucky. By Melbourne.
1st dam Young Utilla by Florizel (Hurricane).
2d dam Utilla by imported Margrave (which see).

Produce--
1871, b. f. by Gilroy.

In ASB 3: Sire's name changed to Melbourne, Jr. and Blue Grass Park is changed to Blue Grass Stud, but everything else is the same.

Young Utilla's second filly by Melbourne, Jr., Teetotal, was owned by her breeder, according to ASB 3.

So am I correct in suspecting that Tasmania was renamed Monomania sometime after her 1871 filly was born and that S. D. Bruce didn't catch it?

Let me know what you think.

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Pan Zareta
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Re: Opinion needed - are these two mares the same horse?

Postby Pan Zareta » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:38 pm

aethervox wrote:So am I correct in suspecting that Tasmania was renamed Monomania sometime after her 1871 filly was born and that S. D. Bruce didn't catch it?


She was either renamed by Richards or entered erroneously as Tasmania in records from her breeder, or in racing rcds. (Do you know if she was raced under either/both name[s]?) The other minor discrepancies probably reflect the preferred nomenclature of different owners.

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Re: Opinion needed - are these two mares the same horse?

Postby aethervox » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:45 am

Pan Zareta wrote:
aethervox wrote:So am I correct in suspecting that Tasmania was renamed Monomania sometime after her 1871 filly was born and that S. D. Bruce didn't catch it?


She was either renamed by Richards or entered erroneously as Tasmania in records from her breeder, or in racing rcds. (Do you know if she was raced under either/both name[s]?) The other minor discrepancies probably reflect the preferred nomenclature of different owners.


I haven't found any race records for Monomania or the 1865 vintage Tasmania, but I stumbled over a mare in England named Tasmania out of Melbourne, born in 1854.

There was also a filly in America racing in 1869 - Purdy & Withers' ch. f. Tasmania, 3 yrs old. who won the Spring-Ladies Stakes that year.

Do you think they would rename the 1865 Tasmania to avoid confusion between the 1866 stakes-winning filly and/or the English Mare?

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Pan Zareta
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Re: Opinion needed - are these two mares the same horse?

Postby Pan Zareta » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:17 pm

aethervox wrote:Do you think they would rename the 1865 Tasmania to avoid confusion between the 1866 stakes-winning filly


It's possible, but prior to the establishment of the North Am JC it wasn't at all unusual to find two (or more) horses or mares near in age, of the same name, and active on the track and/or in the stud.

and/or the English Mare?


Unlikely, imho.

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Re: Opinion needed - are these two mares the same horse?

Postby Linda_d » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:20 am

Pan Zareta wrote:
aethervox wrote:Do you think they would rename the 1865 Tasmania to avoid confusion between the 1866 stakes-winning filly


It's possible, but prior to the establishment of the North Am JC it wasn't at all unusual to find two (or more) horses or mares near in age, of the same name, and active on the track and/or in the stud.


That would be my take on it, too. Keep in mind that there was very limited movement of horses (and people!) in the 19th century compared to today. Prior to the Civil War, probably 90% of Americans had never been further than 50 miles from where they'd been born -- so many fewer horses moved around. The growth of railroads changed that, but it took most of the 19th century to accomplish that.

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Postby aethervox » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:17 pm

Okay, while it would be nice to know why her name was changed, it's not what I need for the research I'm doing.

What I need to know is the birth year of Monomania.

So do you think it would be safe to assume that Monomania and Tasmania are the same mare and that she was foaled in 1865?

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Pan Zareta
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Postby Pan Zareta » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:44 pm

aethervox wrote:So do you think it would be safe to assume that Monomania and Tasmania are the same mare and that she was foaled in 1865?


Yes :)

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Postby aethervox » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:40 pm

Pan Zareta wrote:
aethervox wrote:So do you think it would be safe to assume that Monomania and Tasmania are the same mare and that she was foaled in 1865?


Yes :)


Thanks!