Breeding advice

Get advice on your broodmares and stallion selection.

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tjobert
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Breeding advice

Postby tjobert » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:54 pm

I'm trying to select a stallion for my mare:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/heavens+dancer

She's ~ 16 hands, a little light boned with a pretty head and no glaring conformation issues. She's got a yearling Intidab filly and a Mustanfar coming, which we'll likely keep to race. Ideally her 2010 foal would go through the sales.

Right now I'm looking at Dehere and Tenpins, however I'm concerned that Dehere may be too much stallion given her worth. I'd also prefer a foal share to Dehere but I'm not sure they'd accept her on those terms. I like Tenpins despite his weak first crop numbers and think he could turn it around but he's far from a commercial sire. I'm thinking a 7500-12500 stud fee is reasonable for her. Am I off the mark? Does anyone have a suggestion for an appropriate KY based stallion that might fit well?

Thanks

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springboro
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Postby springboro » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:08 pm

i know that people are going to flame me for this choice, but i like her with Street Hero. Your mare has a dandy pedigree page with plenty of black type (she's a full sister to a SW) and lots of early speed.

I think this would be a very commercial cross, which I think is what you're asking for.

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Postby ct2346 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:46 pm

Your mare just got a whole lot more valuable last weekend. If you're a betting person - I'd say go ahead with the Dehere choice. He will become a very good bm sire so you can always root for a filly.

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Postby springboro » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:08 pm

you got me curious so I had to dig a little deeper to see what you meant!

THIS ONES FOR PHIL (USA) ch. G, 2006 DP = 12-8-8-0-2 (30) DI = 4.00 CD = 0.93 - 9 Starts, 3 Wins, 1 Places, 1 Shows Career Earnings: $227,840

Owner: Paul Pompa Jr.
Breeder: Gilbert Campbell
State Bred: FL
Winnings: 9 Starts: 3 - 1 - 1, $227,840

At 2: Won Seacliff (L, CRC)
At 3: Won SunMill Dash (R, GP)

Trained at 2 by Kathleen O'Connell, was purchased late in 2008 by Paul Pompa. Was moved to Rick Dutrows barn because the connections believed the horse wasn't getting the best attention. After a small surgical procedure the horse was back in training in hopes of making the Sunshine Millions Dash. He received a 117 Beyer winning Sunshine Millions Dash 1/24/09 at Gulfstream in first start as Rick Dutrow charge.

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springboro
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Postby springboro » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:17 pm

I would think you'd have plenty of bargaining power to try and get that foal share you want. Considering the success with an Unbridled stallion, find a really good one. I suspect some might be out of reach, but there is no harm in trying Empire Maker or Songandaprayer.

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Postby AscotStud » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:08 pm

Hopefully you have not sold her already to some "agent" calling you because his friend has a stallion in Ohio or West Virgina that matches well with your mare. He doesn't have a lot of money, but likes the cross.

It's funny how calls come in once your mare produces something. The fact you posted on here not knowing she produced a big winner left yourself pretty vulnerable to the vultures out there.

A friendly tip, put all progeny of your mares and those of the fillies in their pedigees in your stable mail. That way you know when and what they are running for. There are people out there that are on the phone trying to scoop up mares with big updates all the time.

Good luck with who ever you choose, but if I was deciding stricly between the two you mentioned I would side with Dehere.
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Postby imnumberjuan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:30 pm

Ascot,

sound advice. I have recieved a couple of unsolicited phone calls - one the guy sounded like he was reading a script - he called me at work - I found out he had called on the weekend and gotten the oncall parts guy.

I told him to fax or email it to me - when I read the sheet on his "exciting new stallion prospect" he was reading it WORD FOR WORD.

I like to use the Brisnet/equineline catalog updates on top of the virtual stables when looking at my mare or anything I might consider buying.
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Postby Hold Your Peace » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:03 am

AscotStud wrote:Hopefully you have not sold her already to some "agent" calling you because his friend has a stallion in Ohio or West Virgina that matches well with your mare. He doesn't have a lot of money, but likes the cross.

It's funny how calls come in once your mare produces something. The fact you posted on here not knowing she produced a big winner left yourself pretty vulnerable to the vultures out there.

A friendly tip, put all progeny of your mares and those of the fillies in their pedigees in your stable mail. That way you know when and what they are running for. There are people out there that are on the phone trying to scoop up mares with big updates all the time.

Good luck with who ever you choose, but if I was deciding stricly between the two you mentioned I would side with Dehere.


The mare in question is a half-sister to This One's For Phil and not the dam of This One's For Phil so I don't think there will be too much fuss although it is a really nice update.

You're right though that if the mare in question had been the DAM of This One's For Phil then people (like myself) would have been trying to buy her while at the same time not letting on to the real reason I was interested. And saying you've got a stallion you have shares in who you think would match up well with mares by the sire of the mare you want (in this case Sword Dance) is one of the best ways.

Cases like that don't come close to putting you in the horse trader hall of fame though (I think you actually have to have been hung to gain admission to the horsetrader hall of fame).

Although this story was totally untrue, there was a scene in the incredibly inaccurate 1947 movie about Kentucky Derby winner Black Gold where supposedly some Osage indian was 'tricked' out of the mare who would later produce Black Gold. Some white guys told the indian that a claiming race was a race in which you "claim" your horse is the best so that's where the indian should run her and then of course these white guys claimed the mare from the indian. Then I think the indian got the claim voided somehow and the rest became history. Like I say, that story is totally inaccurate in that the dam of Black Gold was owned by an Irishman who was married to an Osage Indian (Rosa Hoots) who wound up as the breeder and owner of Black Gold as the Irishman had died before Black Gold was conceived.

Now that story, had it been true, would have put those guys in the horse trader hall of fame.

Then there are the great lines from the horse trader in Far And Away. First after selling Tom Cruise a very old, but very calm, horse the horse trader looks on at the horse dropping dead of old age just minutes after Cruis purchased him and he tells the guy stanind net to him "Oldest horse I ever sold". And then after that Cruise buys a buck wild, green broke, young horse from this horse trader and later while watching this horse going nuts prior to the land race the horse trader tells the guy next to him with a smile "I sold him that horse".

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Postby Linda_d » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:20 am

Hold Your Peace wrote:Although this story was totally untrue, there was a scene in the incredibly inaccurate 1947 movie about Kentucky Derby winner Black Gold where supposedly some Osage indian was 'tricked' out of the mare who would later produce Black Gold. Some white guys told the indian that a claiming race was a race in which you "claim" your horse is the best so that's where the indian should run her and then of course these white guys claimed the mare from the indian. Then I think the indian got the claim voided somehow and the rest became history. Like I say, that story is totally inaccurate in that the dam of Black Gold was owned by an Irishman who was married to an Osage Indian (Rosa Hoots) who wound up as the breeder and owner of Black Gold as the Irishman had died before Black Gold was conceived.


As I understand it, Hoots was actually ruled off the tracks (in Oklahoma?) because he refused to give up the mare when she was claimed, so that much of the story is based on fact.

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Postby tjobert » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:48 pm

Ascot, We were aware of This One's For Phil and the update to her page, but no calls yet. Not sure they're going to be beating down our door given that he's a gelding and she's a half sister, not the producer. On top of that, given the furor, it's probably the worst way to get a nice update. Still, it reaffirms the family and helps us negotiate to a better stallion possibly. My main difficulty is knowing if my valuation of her justifies the stud fees I'm looking at. Since our main goal is a foal share I guess that's a moot point as we should be shooting as high as they'll offer.

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Postby Hold Your Peace » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:12 pm

tjobert wrote:Ascot, We were aware of This One's For Phil and the update to her page, but no calls yet. Not sure they're going to be beating down our door given that he's a gelding and she's a half sister, not the producer. On top of that, given the furor, it's probably the worst way to get a nice update. Still, it reaffirms the family and helps us negotiate to a better stallion possibly. My main difficulty is knowing if my valuation of her justifies the stud fees I'm looking at. Since our main goal is a foal share I guess that's a moot point as we should be shooting as high as they'll offer.


I like your mare and like her sire Sword Dance as a broodmare sire.

Sword Dance mares have produced graded stakes winner Dawn After Dawn by Kentucky stallion Successful Appeal and stakes winner Yesshecandance by Kentucky stallion Yes It's True. Those might be another two to at least ask about a foal share with. Might also incude Successful Appeal's son Closing Argument whose in Kentucky.

Of course there are several stakes winners out of Sword Dance mares by Untuttable (Untuttabe and Sword Dance both stood at the same farm) so you could always look towards the Unbridled line as well especially since your mare's promising half-brother This One's For Phil was by Untuttable.

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Postby tjobert » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:32 pm

Interesting, we'd been looking at Successful Appeal who has great numbers. He seemed a good value at 40k but was beyond our reach last year, but with his fee cut nearly in half that's definitely an option. We're hoping for a 'meet and greet' with him to see if he fits physically.

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Postby Hold Your Peace » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:38 pm

tjobert wrote:Interesting, we'd been looking at Successful Appeal who has great numbers. He seemed a good value at 40k but was beyond our reach last year, but with his fee cut nearly in half that's definitely an option. We're hoping for a 'meet and greet' with him to see if he fits physically.


Dawn After Dawn (by Successful Appeal out of a Sword Dance mare) is one of his top lifetime runners and is still out there running and winning (she has a SW in 2009) so I would hope they'd take a long look at a foal share with you given that your mare is by Sword Dance and given that she's a half to a "now" horse like This One's For Phil. Successful Appeal has actually been a little "quiet" of late so that's going to help you get a deal. I haven't talked to them but I'd bet some people have been able to talk them down a little from that quoted figure of $22,500.

I just looked and Dawn After Dawn was Successful Appeal's only US graded stakes winner last year and is his only 2009 stakes winner so far so that should give you a good chance.

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Postby brogers » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:34 am

Dehere is a nice mating although I don't mind her with Lemon Drop Kid either....
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Postby Firebrand » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:40 am

I believe Walmac has extended their breeders incentive program to include the option of allowing breeders to pay stud fees with sale proceeds/or through foal sharing on all their stallions. So that might give you a couple of options for Successful Appeal, if that's the direction you want to go. But...

brogers wrote:Dehere is a nice mating although I don't mind her with Lemon Drop Kid either....


I agree with Byron, especially about Lemon Drop Kid. That would cross Sword Dance's 2nd dam Lisadell with her full sister Special (who is HOT right now). It would also double Somethingroyal through both Secretariat and Sir Gaylord. This match would also double Seattle Slew through a son and a daughter.

Henrythenavigator would also be an interesting match for Heavens Dancer because he's not only by Kingmambo, he also brings Sadler's Wells to the mix and Lisadell's family has done well with Sadler's Wells. (Fatherland, Soldier Hollow and El Condor Pasa to name a few).

Since both of these options are pricey and I don't know if Lane's End or Ashford would do a foal share (although Lane's End does do it sometimes) the cheaper way to go maybe Mingun for $5000. There's also Kitalpha, but he's a little more expensive at $12,500.

Just a little food for thought!