Breeding Sprinters to Stayers

[Busanda]

I know there's an old saying about breeding like to like aptitude-wise, but do most people adhere to that still?

I have a mare who's a very fast stakes-winning sprinter who's won in soft company going 7.5f on the turf.

I really want to add bottom to her and was thinking of breeding her to a turn turn specialist. I'm not looking for specific crosses, just if people stick to this type of old fashioned breeding theories.

[George William Smith]

Sprinters to Stayers is usually a big no no! You usually get a horse that is not fast and can't run long against good horses.

Occasionally, though, if you get a Classic horse you really get a good one!

George

[pokeyman]

I know there's an old saying about breeding like to like aptitude-wise, but do most people adhere to that still?

I have a mare who's a very fast stakes-winning sprinter who's won in soft company going 7.5f on the turf.

I really want to add bottom to her and was thinking of breeding her to a turn turn specialist. I'm not looking for specific crosses, just if people stick to this type of old fashioned breeding theories.

I am going to bite the bullet and try it this year. I have a mare that was a hard knocking claimer ($35,000-$5000) but did win both of her allowance conditions. According to her pedigree, she should be a 2 turn horse. However, this mare was a crack sprinter. She would do a half in :45 almost every race (43 starts) and get 5 in :58 and then croak. Occasionally, she would hang on to get 6 in 1:12 and change.

Well, this whole female family only has 1 horse in 3 generations that has won at 1 mile. This mare herself has been bred to 2 turn stallions every year and all 4 foals are sprinters.

I bred her to Concerto with my thinking being he won at 1 1/4 but could get 6 in a fast time. Kid is a yearling so can't comment yet.

This year, I decided to breed her to a pure plodder....Raffie's Majesty. This stallion is a stamina horse with zero tactical speed. However, his AWD of his kids is over 7 which is really huge statistically speaking if you look at the numbers of all of the AWD of dirt stallions in this country. This stallion clearly passes on his stamina to his foals. On top of that, he really moves his mares up in class.

Granted, I breed for a regional race market and not to win open races at major tracks....

So, we shall see. I am hoping to just stretch this family out to a mile. Heck, I would even take a solid 6 furlongs without croaking at 5.

I'll keep you posted as to if the experiment works!

If this last kid is a sprinter, I plan on culling the mare. She has almost 100% winners (only non-winner is a 3 year old with 1 start but still racing in 2009-the rest all won). In this bunch, is an open allowance winner at Philly and another kid that is a multi-allowance placed horse at Suffolk. However, I am not interested in breeding sprinters. I didn't look deep enough into her female family when I bought her.....

So, my thought process was to finally look at the AWD (average winning distance) of a stallion's foals as a judgement of his ability to be a stamina influence. I look for a stallion with an AWD of over 7. I have only found a few stallions who are dirt sires that are over 8 such as Pleasant Tap. It doesn't matter what a pedigree says if the horse in front of you is a sprinter. It's what the horses produce and sire that really matters.

So, that's my two cents!

[Busanda]

Thanks, P.

At this point, I want to add stamina to what she has. As she's gotten older, we've actually taught her to come off the pace and win, where in the past, she was all speed and if she found herself breaking slow, she was useless in the race.

[merse]

This mare herself has been bred to 2 turn stallions every year and all 4 foals are sprinters.

pokeyman - my first question is, did their trainers try to run them in anything but sprints? Unfortunately, a lot of trainers try to pound that square peg in the round hole....

[Bill from WA]

Hi Pokeyman

Your mare is interesting from a conduit mare perspective. Her conduit profile predicted a sprinter/miler (Index of 1.31 and a stamina index of 1.20), and pedigree numbers that suggest 5 to 7 furlong limits. Your foal by Concerto does have more pedigree stamina (Index of 0.88), while the Raffie's Majesty baby has even more stamina influences (Index of 0.66), which signals classic distances as a possibility. Just another way of looking at it. I am a fan of Raffie's Majesty (have been from the start). I love the presence of Surumu in his pedigree. Good luck with both of your babies.

Bill

[pokeyman]

Merse- not sure. I'll have to check as I didn't own the mare then or do any of the breedings. I did the Concerto and Raffie's breedings only.

Bill sent you a PM.

[Pete]

Hi Busanda,

I agree with George. I don't think that it's a good policy to try and average qualities in a pedigree.

Breed to a stallion that doesn't replicate your mares faults. Don't make the mistake that conformation, features or aptitude will average out because they don't (usually).

Aptitude is based on conformation, training and temperment. If your mare is succesful sprinting then don't assume that breeding to a router will add distance to the foal. If you want to try and add some distance I'd look for a stallion that had speed over a mile or perhaps a little longer. There's no guarantee that foals will replicate their parents aptitude. Smoke Glacken was a champion sprinter who stopped around 2 turns but in his first crop he got Smoke N' Frolic who won the 2 turn Demoiselle (G2) at 9f at 2yo.

I believe that affinity for surface is more reliably passed and that should be a consideration - where you intend to race or the market that you are selling in. Poly surfaces are a new wrinkle for breeders to consider.

Best of luck,

Pete

[Cryptic Ninja]

Hey pokeyman.......whats the name of your mare??

I'd like to have a look at her pedigree!!!