Hi
I am looking to get some thoughts on a Pennsylvania stallion for "Sack of Rubies". She will stand in PA. If you give me a stallion name please give me a sentence or two as to why you feel it would be a good match.
I am looking at Wiseman's Ferry, Ecclesiastic, Fairbanks but would like to know your thoughts on these or any others that might be a match. Pa stallions only.
thank you for your help
Gary
Help me select a stallion
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Hi Gary:
I believe we met at a stallion show this weekend! I never asked if you were breeding to race in PA or for the auctions, which would make a difference.
First, I like the mare - she apparently just retired, competed mostly in allowance races & was a turf mare. Her dam (who wasn't a turf mare) earned more than $100k and her dam's siblings were also all winners, so there's some good stuff to work with - and good reason not to pigeon-hole her strictly in the turf category. And if you are breeding to race the foal yourself, the fact that she herself was a turf mare won't be a detriment like it might if you wanted to sell the foals (where many buyers prefer dirt horses because the racing is more year-round.)
I also like your stallion choices, but think you will do better if breeding to race in Pennsylvania than if breeding to sell, so that's something to think about. If you want to breed to a PA stallion and sell the foal & make a profit, that's more difficult - new regional sires aren't popular at the auctions in a good economy, much less now. With so many new stallions in PA, if you are breeding-to-sell, you almost need to pick the one whose owners have historically supported their young stallions more than picking the one that actually matches your mare. IF you happen to find one stallion which does both, it's a lucky day.
For example, I like Ecclesiastic very much - enough to have bred to him twice. We sent two different type mares & both foals show balance and a very good hip. But Ecclesiastic's 1st foals are just yearlings in 2010, so there is no guarantee how they'll be greeted at auction, much less how they'll run at the track. It's easy to sell the fantasy for a 1st year stallion when people want to get in at the ground floor because they might not be able to afford the stallion once he hits. But by the 3rd breeding season, people are thinking they should maybe wait to see how the stallion's 1st crop do at the yearling sales & by the 4th breeding season, they think maybe they should see how they do at the 2 y.o. sales . . . and if there isn't a breakout runner, the 5th season is another waiting year. This is Ecclesiastic's 3rd season & the farm where he stands has gone under different management. It wasn't clear when he shipped south last year whether he would be returning (which made me question before he came back whether the farm that had owned him would be supporting his foals - and which would make me need to breed to him now only if I intended to race the foal myself). So if you believe in him well enough to put all that behind you and give him a shot, you could be rewarded. But maybe not.
Likewise, I really like Wiseman's Ferry as a physical specimen. I went to Dana Point's open house to see Toccet and Action This Day, but I think my favorite there was Wiseman's Ferry. However, his foals don't do especially well at auction.
I missed the Northview PA stallion show so didn't see Fairbanks in person, so can't comment on him. Likewise, I didn't see Lido Palace (CHI) who is at the same farm.
While Lido Palace's offspring haven't sold especially well in the past, it is possible that Vineyard Haven's successes might make him more popular. and since this mare's 2nd dam was bred several times to FortyNiner sons with good success, it seems that her mamma's family likes that sire line. You might want to add Lido Palace to your consideration for her, if you are thinking about racing the foal.
THe other thing to really consider is how these stallions match the mare physically, as well as on paper. Both Wiseman's Ferry and Ecclesiastic - and Talent Search who we saw on Saturday, are well-balanced. They can be bred to a lot of different types of mares, but not to all types. (I didn't see Fairbanks, so can't comment on him.) Only someone who has seen the mare in person - as opposed to me, who has seen her just on paper - can comment on whether she "fits" the stallions on that level.
Best of luck!
I believe we met at a stallion show this weekend! I never asked if you were breeding to race in PA or for the auctions, which would make a difference.
First, I like the mare - she apparently just retired, competed mostly in allowance races & was a turf mare. Her dam (who wasn't a turf mare) earned more than $100k and her dam's siblings were also all winners, so there's some good stuff to work with - and good reason not to pigeon-hole her strictly in the turf category. And if you are breeding to race the foal yourself, the fact that she herself was a turf mare won't be a detriment like it might if you wanted to sell the foals (where many buyers prefer dirt horses because the racing is more year-round.)
I also like your stallion choices, but think you will do better if breeding to race in Pennsylvania than if breeding to sell, so that's something to think about. If you want to breed to a PA stallion and sell the foal & make a profit, that's more difficult - new regional sires aren't popular at the auctions in a good economy, much less now. With so many new stallions in PA, if you are breeding-to-sell, you almost need to pick the one whose owners have historically supported their young stallions more than picking the one that actually matches your mare. IF you happen to find one stallion which does both, it's a lucky day.
For example, I like Ecclesiastic very much - enough to have bred to him twice. We sent two different type mares & both foals show balance and a very good hip. But Ecclesiastic's 1st foals are just yearlings in 2010, so there is no guarantee how they'll be greeted at auction, much less how they'll run at the track. It's easy to sell the fantasy for a 1st year stallion when people want to get in at the ground floor because they might not be able to afford the stallion once he hits. But by the 3rd breeding season, people are thinking they should maybe wait to see how the stallion's 1st crop do at the yearling sales & by the 4th breeding season, they think maybe they should see how they do at the 2 y.o. sales . . . and if there isn't a breakout runner, the 5th season is another waiting year. This is Ecclesiastic's 3rd season & the farm where he stands has gone under different management. It wasn't clear when he shipped south last year whether he would be returning (which made me question before he came back whether the farm that had owned him would be supporting his foals - and which would make me need to breed to him now only if I intended to race the foal myself). So if you believe in him well enough to put all that behind you and give him a shot, you could be rewarded. But maybe not.
Likewise, I really like Wiseman's Ferry as a physical specimen. I went to Dana Point's open house to see Toccet and Action This Day, but I think my favorite there was Wiseman's Ferry. However, his foals don't do especially well at auction.
I missed the Northview PA stallion show so didn't see Fairbanks in person, so can't comment on him. Likewise, I didn't see Lido Palace (CHI) who is at the same farm.
While Lido Palace's offspring haven't sold especially well in the past, it is possible that Vineyard Haven's successes might make him more popular. and since this mare's 2nd dam was bred several times to FortyNiner sons with good success, it seems that her mamma's family likes that sire line. You might want to add Lido Palace to your consideration for her, if you are thinking about racing the foal.
THe other thing to really consider is how these stallions match the mare physically, as well as on paper. Both Wiseman's Ferry and Ecclesiastic - and Talent Search who we saw on Saturday, are well-balanced. They can be bred to a lot of different types of mares, but not to all types. (I didn't see Fairbanks, so can't comment on him.) Only someone who has seen the mare in person - as opposed to me, who has seen her just on paper - can comment on whether she "fits" the stallions on that level.
Best of luck!
Mating advice
Yes Bill that was me. Thank you for your insight. What do you think of Cat Thief.
Actually, this is Kim, not Bill, who almost never posts (but if you see HiddenEchoFarm, that's him!) -
But we both like Cat Thief. Plus, his yearling auction results were a little better last year than some other stallions - but those results sometimes change when a stallion relocates, so there are no guarantees on the breed-for-sale front, but he is a nice horse.
But we both like Cat Thief. Plus, his yearling auction results were a little better last year than some other stallions - but those results sometimes change when a stallion relocates, so there are no guarantees on the breed-for-sale front, but he is a nice horse.
I like to look at average earnings per starter
If you go to page 62 of the February 2010 issue of Mid Atlantic Thoroughbred you will find that Two Smart holds the number one position in that category but he is dead.. The second place stallion is Bop with $31,227 avearage earnings per starter.
he is not a PA stallion but there is nothing wrong with a WVSIRED foal that is also a PABRED , especially if the stallion has set three track records and tied the world's record for 5 1/2 furlongs.
I'm already committed for 2010 but I'm going to be all over him in 2011.
By the way, Cat Thief has an averagae earnings per starter of $19,682. A very good stallion and he's getting some decent mares, especially before he moved to PA.
PS: Not For Love has an average earnings per starter of $28,587 and the average earnings per starter of the top five stallions in KY is less than $40k
griff
If you go to page 62 of the February 2010 issue of Mid Atlantic Thoroughbred you will find that Two Smart holds the number one position in that category but he is dead.. The second place stallion is Bop with $31,227 avearage earnings per starter.
he is not a PA stallion but there is nothing wrong with a WVSIRED foal that is also a PABRED , especially if the stallion has set three track records and tied the world's record for 5 1/2 furlongs.
I'm already committed for 2010 but I'm going to be all over him in 2011.
By the way, Cat Thief has an averagae earnings per starter of $19,682. A very good stallion and he's getting some decent mares, especially before he moved to PA.
PS: Not For Love has an average earnings per starter of $28,587 and the average earnings per starter of the top five stallions in KY is less than $40k
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Griff, those average earnings per runner numbers in the Mid-Atlantic Thoro. that you reference are based on each stallion's 2009 total progeny earnings.
A MUCH better tool, in my opinion, is to pull up the Thoroughbred Times' state stallion rankings. For Pennsylvania stallions, for instance, it shows each horse's LIFETIME average earnings per runner, a number not based on one year. There you will find that, among the current top 20 sires, Lite the Fuse sires horses who average $61,802 in earnings; Partner's Hero has a lifetime average of $56,717, and Cat Thief $55,909.
Switching gears to West Virginia, Bop only has a lifetime average earnings per runner of $37,830.
If you are breeding to race, looking at the big picture is more helpful than just one year.
A MUCH better tool, in my opinion, is to pull up the Thoroughbred Times' state stallion rankings. For Pennsylvania stallions, for instance, it shows each horse's LIFETIME average earnings per runner, a number not based on one year. There you will find that, among the current top 20 sires, Lite the Fuse sires horses who average $61,802 in earnings; Partner's Hero has a lifetime average of $56,717, and Cat Thief $55,909.
Switching gears to West Virginia, Bop only has a lifetime average earnings per runner of $37,830.
If you are breeding to race, looking at the big picture is more helpful than just one year.
Bohemia wrote:Griff, those average earnings per runner numbers in the Mid-Atlantic Thoro. that you reference are based on each stallion's 2009 total progeny earnings.
A MUCH better tool, in my opinion, is to pull up the Thoroughbred Times' state stallion rankings. For Pennsylvania stallions, for instance, it shows each horse's LIFETIME average earnings per runner, a number not based on one year. There you will find that, among the current top 20 sires, Lite the Fuse sires horses who average $61,802 in earnings; Partner's Hero has a lifetime average of $56,717, and Cat Thief $55,909.
Switching gears to West Virginia, Bop only has a lifetime average earnings per runner of $37,830.
If you are breeding to race, looking at the big picture is more helpful than just one year.
You know, before the influx of stallions into PA, I always said that if you wanted to breed a runner, Lite The Fuse was one to consider (presuming you had the right mare). Again for the OP, that presumes you are breeding a race horse not an auction horse.
Lifetime avearage eranings per runner are a good measure and so are 2009 avearge earnings per runner.. My point is both are better than total get earnings per 2009 or lifetime as stallions with100 to 200 get per year will always look better using that criteria..
Also, I believe lifetime avearge earnings per starter favor older stallions just a tad. Maybe looking at avearge earnigs per runner using both 2009 and lifetime is the way to go and when you find something like Lite the Fise's 2009 average per starter of $13,891 vs his very good lifetime average find out if he just had a bad 2009 or if maybe his one great runner is no longer racing.
griff
Also, I believe lifetime avearge earnings per starter favor older stallions just a tad. Maybe looking at avearge earnigs per runner using both 2009 and lifetime is the way to go and when you find something like Lite the Fise's 2009 average per starter of $13,891 vs his very good lifetime average find out if he just had a bad 2009 or if maybe his one great runner is no longer racing.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Griff, Bohemia, et al, if you're looking at average earnings per runner, make sure you're also looking at average number of starts, average earnings per start, and median earnings per runner. If you have a horse who has one or two big-ticket runners and a whole lot of crap, you can figure that out really quickly.
Case in point: Real Quiet. His average earnings are $51,000, but his median earnings are only $14,000. In his case, the discrepancy can be largely explained by Midnight Lute, whose lifetime earnings are nearly three times the amount of his second highest earner, and without whom Real Quiet's average progeny earnings are about $43,000.
Case in point: Real Quiet. His average earnings are $51,000, but his median earnings are only $14,000. In his case, the discrepancy can be largely explained by Midnight Lute, whose lifetime earnings are nearly three times the amount of his second highest earner, and without whom Real Quiet's average progeny earnings are about $43,000.
I really like Partner's Hero for her. The mare was a straight up turf horse so why not stick to turf?
It is also shaky breeding turf mares to dirt horses and hoping for a dirt horse. I would breed her turf for her first couple of foals and then "experiment" with a dirt stallion.
I would also definitely pick a proven stallion for her for her first couple of foals, at least. Unproven mares to unproven stallions are a big risk.
In addition to Partner's Hero, a Toccet breeding would bring in A LOT of linebreeding, particularly to the great mare *Portage who will be sex balanced. Of course, you would have to breed that subsequent foal to an outcross.....
Just my two cents. Good luck..nice mare!
It is also shaky breeding turf mares to dirt horses and hoping for a dirt horse. I would breed her turf for her first couple of foals and then "experiment" with a dirt stallion.
I would also definitely pick a proven stallion for her for her first couple of foals, at least. Unproven mares to unproven stallions are a big risk.
In addition to Partner's Hero, a Toccet breeding would bring in A LOT of linebreeding, particularly to the great mare *Portage who will be sex balanced. Of course, you would have to breed that subsequent foal to an outcross.....
Just my two cents. Good luck..nice mare!
Bohemia wrote:Re: Partner's Hero - why is it that this stallion, who was a graded stakes-winning sprinter on the dirt, is quickly being thought of as a "turf"stallion? I know he has sired some excellent grass horses but what is it about him or his pedigree that is making breeders think of him this way?
Look at his turf stats....the proof is in the pudding. He has been one of the leading Mid-Atlantic Turf sires now for a couple years (behind only Not For Love). He has been the leading PA Turf sire since moving to the state. In fact, in both 2008 and 2009 almost 40% of his overall progeny earnings were on the grass- which is quite high. Last year alone, he sired 3 or 4 individual turf stakes winners (2nd behind only NFL again who had 6 turf SWs). While in MD in 2007, he was again the 2nd leading turf sire behind you know who. The Danzig blood must be coming through....
From ad on TBT:
"PENNSYLVANIA’S PREMIER TURF SIRE
#2 PA-based sire of 2009 by Stakes Winners
#2 in the Mid-Atlantic region by 2009 turf earnings
68% winners from starters
17 SWs (both dirt and turf), 32 stakes horses
Sire of GSWs HEROS REWARD ($1,069,746) and NEW YORK HERO ($628,438)
Lifetime progeny earnings exceed $15-million"
Kimberly Mine
I believe we are on the same page. I don't have in stock in Bop but he is a good case in point in that his oldest foals were born in 2005 and started racing in 2007 at the earliest.. Since we are talking about 2009 stats that is two years of racing for about half his foals to race and one year for the other half.
In other words comparing the life time earnings for three and four year old race horses with life time earnings for 6, 7, or maybe eight year old horses is not valid; i.e., life time avearge earnings per starter definitely gives the stallion with older get a big edge..
Lite the Fuse has a 2009 average earnings per starter of $13,801 and if the horses that established that $13,801 did the same for 4 years his lifetime average earnings per starter would be $54,204..
I believe Lite The Fuse get started running in 2000 while Bop get started running in 2007.
I'm not anti Lite The Fuse but comparing his lifetime average eranings per starter with a two racing crop stallion's lifetime average earnings per starter is not valid. Comparing his 2009 average earnings per sstarter with a two crop stallions 2009 average earnings per starter is a valid comparision
I know it is more complcated than this as new horses are starting ever year and all horses do not race for 5, 6 7, etc years; however, I think this simplified example shows that maybe annual avearge earnings per starter is as good an indicator as lifetime average earnings per starter; and actually better when comparing older and newer stallions, or stallions with a long stud history with stallions that have just started their stuf careers.
Plus all the other stuff you brought up as there is no one indicator; however, I do not believe both annual or lifetime total get earnings, which seems to be the industry beanchmark, are not a good measure as that definitely favors factory stallions that produce hundreds of foals a year.
griff
I believe we are on the same page. I don't have in stock in Bop but he is a good case in point in that his oldest foals were born in 2005 and started racing in 2007 at the earliest.. Since we are talking about 2009 stats that is two years of racing for about half his foals to race and one year for the other half.
In other words comparing the life time earnings for three and four year old race horses with life time earnings for 6, 7, or maybe eight year old horses is not valid; i.e., life time avearge earnings per starter definitely gives the stallion with older get a big edge..
Lite the Fuse has a 2009 average earnings per starter of $13,801 and if the horses that established that $13,801 did the same for 4 years his lifetime average earnings per starter would be $54,204..
I believe Lite The Fuse get started running in 2000 while Bop get started running in 2007.
I'm not anti Lite The Fuse but comparing his lifetime average eranings per starter with a two racing crop stallion's lifetime average earnings per starter is not valid. Comparing his 2009 average earnings per sstarter with a two crop stallions 2009 average earnings per starter is a valid comparision
I know it is more complcated than this as new horses are starting ever year and all horses do not race for 5, 6 7, etc years; however, I think this simplified example shows that maybe annual avearge earnings per starter is as good an indicator as lifetime average earnings per starter; and actually better when comparing older and newer stallions, or stallions with a long stud history with stallions that have just started their stuf careers.
Plus all the other stuff you brought up as there is no one indicator; however, I do not believe both annual or lifetime total get earnings, which seems to be the industry beanchmark, are not a good measure as that definitely favors factory stallions that produce hundreds of foals a year.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]