Using my season to Archarcharch or ?

Get advice on your broodmares and stallion selection.

Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane

wen8t
Maiden Special Weight
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:02 pm

mare

Postby wen8t » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:42 pm

Pete my mare star of wicklow has produced two runners that ran real long im interested in what you think she should bred to knowing that i neef speed

User avatar
Pete
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:24 pm
Location: Huntington, NY

Postby Pete » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:55 pm

Hi Wen8t,

Star of Wicklow (m.1991 by Fast Play - Bright Choice by Best Turn)

Dam of Wild Heart Dancing and Man From Wicklow?

Is your question how to get foals with more speed than the above two?

Regards,

Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.

Horses like their credit cards.
- Four Forty Farms

wen8t
Maiden Special Weight
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:02 pm

mare

Postby wen8t » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:08 am

Yes sir i see where they tried to

User avatar
Pete
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:24 pm
Location: Huntington, NY

Postby Pete » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:16 pm

Hi Wen8t,

My question was to understand your intentions with the mare.

Where's the mare located? Do you have a budget and are you 'locked' into breeding locally?

Star of Wicklow was bred twice to both Farma Way and Turkoman and each displayed the best and least of her producing abilities.

Understanding what worked in the two stakes winners would be desired but without the sires or their sons there's little chance to leverage their blood. Star of Wicklow had two other respectable runners with Speightstown and Quiet American.

Both Farma Way and Turkoman did their bulk (and best) running in routes on dirt. I'd not try to change that in my candidates. Your mare and these two stallions were 'old' blood when they were mated and since your mare is unchanged I'd look at as many salient blood influences as possible. There are no guarantees but affinitive blood will change over time and my suggestions attempt to recapture the (blood) components that were successful with her.

I would try to find a stallion with:
Teddy - about the same in the stallion as Star of Wicklow.
Hyperion - Less than a combined 6th generation influence (7th is preferred). This will eliminate most stallions with Northern Dancer close up.
Nasrullah - combined at least a 5th gen influence.
Some Euro stamina lines such as Tourbillon and Ribot .
Domino - many accumulated lines.
Raise A Native but use Mr. Prospector in the 4th generation or later.

I caution that Farma Way and Turkoman both worked and didn't work so this is probably hit or miss but everything else tried has been miss. Do NOT try to breed in speed. It does't work as simply as taking her to a sprinter.

As an example, do a hypo mating with Bob and John. This sire is a bit heavy on Teddy and Mr. Prospector is a bit close but I can live with both and you get a nice 3 x 3 inbreeding to Con Game. His 3rd dam, Too Bald is real positive for this mating. Overall it's not a heavily inbred mating despite the Con Game. I'd like to see Tourbillion but this sire may be the closest to a solid pedigree mating as possible given my restrictions.

Regards,

Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.

Horses like their credit cards.
- Four Forty Farms

wen8t
Maiden Special Weight
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:02 pm

star of wicklow

Postby wen8t » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:20 pm

Shes in lexington i have a breeding to archarcharch hes a really good looking stallion he has features that would really help her what do you think about him

hpkingjr
Moderator
Posts: 1176
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 6:11 am
Location: KY

Include

Postby hpkingjr » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:01 pm

I am enjoying your analysis Pete. Does Include fit your selection criteria?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... OF+WICKLOW
Give the Pope and the King of England a horse and in thirty days, they'll be stealing halters.

User avatar
Pete
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:24 pm
Location: Huntington, NY

Postby Pete » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:23 am

Hi HPKing,

Nice to see you again.

Well done. Include has several of the pedigree elements that I'd look for, he's a more proven sire than Bob and John and he also has Too Bald but I have reservations about Royal Charger (sire of Turn-To) rather than Nasrullah (despite their being close genetic relatives). Include brings two balanced crosses to Ribot that Bob and John lacks.

The Include - Star Of Wicklow breeding has a large Turn-To component and neither Farma Way nor Turkoman had any Turn-To at all but you definitely understand my strategy.

Star Of Wicklow is a similar case to Extra Alarm who had 3 good SWs from her first 5 foals with the otherwise ordinary sire Jig Time and then nothing of note afterwards despite being bred to some superior stallions. In both cases we can look back and it appears that breeder's were taking shots in the dark.

sidebar: Extra Alarm was listed as barren in 1977, her first year in the shed, but then had an amazing 17 consecutive foals!

Affinities appear to change over time but more likely the cause is that component blood in the stallion ranks is always in flux. This is why inherited affinities are very useful (where a sire and his son(s) appear to have similar success with the same and or similar mares). Thus we may be able to assume that sires of the same line that display inherit affinities have less genetic diversity from their fore-bearers compared to sires of another line that don't.

Since the mare never changes there's reason to believe that a return to the genetic patterns of her successful foals may be a good strategy especially when others have failed.

Regards,

Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.

Horses like their credit cards.
- Four Forty Farms

User avatar
dublino
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:54 am

Postby dublino » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:26 am

Belong to me @ $5,000 looks a safe bet with this mare.
Edited by Moderator

Jeff
Starters Handicap
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:49 pm
Location: Nor Cal

Postby Jeff » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:46 am


LB
Eclipse Champion
Posts: 2388
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:57 am
Location: Kentucky

Postby LB » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:11 pm

Pete wrote:
Star Of Wicklow is a similar case to Extra Alarm who had 3 good SWs from her first 5 foals with the otherwise ordinary sire Jig Time and then nothing of note afterwards despite being bred to some superior stallions. In both cases we can look back and it appears that breeder's were taking shots in the dark.

sidebar: Extra Alarm was listed as barren in 1977, her first year in the shed, but then had an amazing 17 consecutive foals!



Hi Pete,

It's interesting to me that you should bring up Extra Alarm since I purchased a descendant of hers recently. While the racing careers of the three SW she produced early in her breeding career (G2 winner DARN THAT ALARM, G2 winner STRONG PERFORMANCE, and JIGGS ALARM) overshadowed those of the offspring she produced later, I can't agree that her fillies were "nothing of note".

Her daughter Alaska Queen produced G2 winner FAIRBANKS ($879,768) and G2 winner KEATS ($462,840).
Her daughter Blazing Alarmiss produced SW, GSP, BLAZING RATE ($433,775).
And her daughter Countess Jig produced SW, GSP LUCKY AGAIN, who is in turn the dam of Breeders Cup Winner, AFLEET AGAIN ($686,470).

Extra Alarm's later offspring may not have proven their worth on the track but they have certainly done so in the breeding shed. :)

User avatar
Pete
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:24 pm
Location: Huntington, NY

Postby Pete » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:48 pm

Hi Wen8t,

I put forth a hypothesis and a possible solution to return your mare to the caliber of production that she enjoyed in her first three foals
and I used Bob and John as an illustration and not as the ideal sire based on performance.

ArchArchArch is a nice mating base on more conventional analysis but base on my hypothesis he has some traits and lacks others.

Best of luck.


Regards,

Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.

Horses like their credit cards.
- Four Forty Farms

User avatar
Pete
Grade I Winner
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:24 pm
Location: Huntington, NY

Postby Pete » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Hi LB,

Sorry but I thought it was clear that I was speaking about Extra Alarm's produce record and not her daughters.

Regards,

Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.

Horses like their credit cards.
- Four Forty Farms