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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:41 am 
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Maiden Special Weight

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Could you compare these NY stallions on conformation, and progeny potential/performance? What do you like or don't like about them? I'm interested in possibly breeding my mare with a NY stallion. Stud fee $5,000 or less. My mare is a tall 17hds. She throws big babies. I don't know how big these guys are. I do know that Bustin Stones is 15.3h. http://www.pedigreequery.com/fashion+verdict2. Her body type is something like Boys At Tosconova. Thanks for your input. Always learning.

Lewis Michael
The Cliff's Edge
Justenuffhumor
Posse
Boys At Tosconova
Bustin Stones
The Lumber Guy


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:42 pm 
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The first thing in question with any of these stallions is your mare, and what you plan to do with the foal.

This mare, IMO, is not a good candidate for breeding a competitive racehorse. She ran poorly in two outs. Only one of her siblings, Tres Jolie, won more than once, and as a broodmare Tres Jolie does not have any offspring who won more than $20,000 (http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Nov11/pdfs/3663.pdf). Fashion Verdict's half-brother Globemaster won a MSW and never hit the board again. Her sister Herb Garden was unraced and produced only low-level winners, with the top earner winning only once and finishing his career for a $5000 tag. You have to go back to the second dam for any racing class, and that class is over hurdles in Europe.

If you are planning on breeding this mare for a racehorse foal, it is highly likely that you will never see the winner's circle. If you have deep pockets and you are okay with that, no problem. If you are looking to breed this mare for a sporthorse, you might look for another thoroughbred advertised for sport (Salute the Truth for an eventer comes to mind). If you are looking to breed for a racehorse, you are better off buying a weanling out of a good running family.

Now, moving on.....if you do breed this mare, you want to look for a good conformation match and who is putting down proven well-running foals. That eliminates the unproven Boys at Toscanova and The Lumber Guy, and probably Justenuffhumor (too soon). Lewis Michael was exiled from Kentucky and he's not going to get better. Of the rest, Posse is the best stallion by a long way.

Not on your list:

There is a straight-up sire of racehorses in New York who is older and not getting much attention: Disco Rico. His foals can run, they're solid, they're sound, and they win money. Cosmonaut's second crop is running and he looks like a useful sire. He's also by a good sporthorse-type stallion, out of a mare by a good sporthorse-type stallion with jump all the way down her pedigree (Lyphard, The Axe, Prince John). The risk with Cosmonaut for your mare is you get a long-winded turfer with nowhere to run.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:31 am 
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Sorry forgot to add this. Breed to race.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:41 am 
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Thank you Kimberley Mine. She probably would make a better sport horse mare. Thanks for adding the info on the about the sport horse stallions. I'll go that route if I decide to breed her.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:50 am 
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People have bred worse horses than her.

I like a punt on D' FUNNYBONE at $2,500 its a no brainer.
7 yearlings sold avg $43,000.

If his horses come out running you might get a return as a weanling even.

Yes he is only 15.3h but at $2,500 its worth a go especially for a state bred foal who can compete against other state breds.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:10 pm 
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Dublino, it's not so much that this mare is bad or worse, it's that all of the talent in this family--from the 2nd dam and back--is over fences. If this mare were in the UK, Ireland, or France, send her to Black Sam Bellamy or Shirocco or Yates and (literally) off to the races you go. There's quite a bit of demand for a good jumping mare in Europe, especially with stakes-quality jumping talent up close in the family. Not so in north america.

If this mare were in Virginia or Maryland, there might be a place for her as breeding a jumps horse, and in that case definitely go for Cosmonaut. In New York, though? No.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:11 pm 
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By the way, 3nutmeg, Cosmonaut is standing as a racehorse stallion....it's just that he has some good TB sporthorse breeding all the way down his damline.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:16 am 
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Globemaster won a MSW at Belmont
Sleeping Car a G2 winner in France on the flat.

tryst miss won a maiden claiming at Charles Town

Tres jolie won 4 races 2 allowances and a $35,000 claimer

There is enough to speculate under the first dam at a low stud fee in a regional market, imho.

But we aren't talking about Zenyatta here! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:32 pm 
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Thanks Dublino. That's interesting to know.

I know that the mare does have pin fire/freeze marks on one front leg. Sometime you don't know what kind of a chance a horse gets.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:17 pm 
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Sleeping Car's stakes wins were the G2 Prix Conseil de Paris (2400m/12f at Longchamp) and Prix du Lion d'Angers (2000m/10f at Lion d'Angers). He's now a decent jumps sire in France, including Double Car who won the Gr-1 Grand Steeplechase of Paris at 3.6 miles. Interestingly, the broodmare sire of Double Car is the sire of Sarh.

Force Atlantique, a half-sister to Sarh, won the Prix Renaud du Vivier at 4100m/20f over fences and was 3rd in the Gr 2 Prix Leon Rambaud at 3900m/19f over fences.

Sarh herself was a stakes winner over hurdles in both France and in the US. It looks like she was imported to be a chaser, did well enough (2nd in a Gr-1 chase well enough), and then the good idea fairy showed up and somebody bred her to flat stallions for a flat horse.

This is actually a deep, talented family for jumps racing, and one that is live and successful over fences in France. But, as Sarh's produce record (and Tres Jolie's record, too) shows, this deep talent for staying and jumps did not translate into much success in the sprint-heavy, dirt-dominant racing conditions of North America. There are very, very few races at 10f or more outside of the graded stakes level, and for a turf horse, really it has to be at least allowance level or better, and in the US racing conditions Sarh's line isn't doing that. Tres Jolie has four foals to race, and only one of them won more than the stud fee (which, at $7500, is not all that impressive).

If you do want to try and breed her for the track, a better option than the dirt/sprint breds around her might be to van her to Maryland to Boy Done Good (aka Salute the Truth). He's placed at the MSW level on the flat, and probably would have run and won had his owners not wanted to risk dropping him into claiming company. After that, he left the track and turned into a very successful eventer, winning at up to CCI** level and being competitive at CCI***. Out of only a few racing starters he has a stakes-winning jumps filly and multiple-placed filly who won about $35k on the flat and over fences in Virginia. Most of his foals are eventers, and he has quite the following amongst the event community. He's tall with a lot of bone, sound, and very stamina-oriented, which will likely bring out the best qualities of your mare. A foal by a known event sire and out of a deep jumping line will get some attention from the sporthorse folks, and the sire has enough useful runners on the track that you might have some fun there.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:07 am 
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When I first looked at the pedigree of your mare....I thought she could benefit with some Blushing Groom and Turn-to bloodlines. Having then looked at the stallions you listed, I couldn't go passed Posse. He also happens to be the most poven from that bunch too.

No matter who you send your mare to, I would be looking for turf/all weather surfaces for the offspring to run on based on that (mares)family, for the best chance of race success.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:14 pm 
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I just ran across a mare who is from a hurdler family (1/2 brother was a G1 performer). She ran and won at 2 1/2 miles over fences in stakes (non black) caliber. Now if i could remember her name..... Cosmonaut for a jumps stallion, you say?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Isla Mujeres by King of Kings.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Cosmonaut is top and bottom bred to what a lot of folks looking for sporthorse TBs look for.

The Missy Baba dam line of Lemon Drop Kid is a big one for jump and athleticism and, yes, stamina.

Capote is known for JUMP and for courage over fences. The Seattle Slew tribe apparently either has a lot of jump or none at all....I know a gelding out of a Slew mare whose response when being asked to jump a rail 1' off the ground was to clear the standards!

A son of Lyphard sired a big-time timber winner in Von Csadek: http://www.pedigreequery.com/von+csadek Timber racing is a whole 'nuther level.

Neither Al Hattab nor Prince John need any introduction.

He's young and he does not have any foals to jump yet (they're only 3, it's too soon). He never ran over jumps himself....there was no reason to when he was a graded stakes winner on the flat. But he's bred to run, and he's bred top and bottom with jump, and he was sound enough to run until he was 7, and his body type is what you want in a jumps horse.

So yeah, somebody who wants to try breeding a flat-to-jumps horse, he might be worth a go.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:50 pm 
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I have a huge 16+h yearling from my mare Fashion Verdict x Stored. I really don't know much about Stored other than he's a WV stallion. Our gelding isn't afraid of anything and learns quickly, he is a thinker. He is smart and people working around him are enamoured with him. I think he'd be a great jumper, not sure if he could compete over hurdles.


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