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 Post subject: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:36 am 
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Newborn

Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:28 pm
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I have a broodmare, currently in foal and due in early March. I want to breed her back to a stallion that will enhance her somewhat tough-to-nick pedigree. I had my choices narrowed down to two; however, the more research I do, the more confused I become. So I am asking for advice to see if I am anywhere near the right track. Her name is Filady.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/filady
I am only shopping Florida stallions

Speedpickle


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 6:11 am
Posts: 1176
Location: KY
Without knowing whether you are racing or selling and your budget this is a little tough to give helpful insights. I like Csaba. Kittens Joy has really had an affinity for Saint Ballado.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... dam=FILADY

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Give the Pope and the King of England a horse and in thirty days, they'll be stealing halters.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:28 pm
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My apologies. I am racing. I don't have a budget so-to-speak, I don't think there are any stallions standing in FL that exceed $10K, so we'll call that my ceiling.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:11 pm 
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Breeder's Cup Contender

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Posts: 1756
Hi there,

Four horses who could work, depending on your goals, conformation match, and what you're looking at for a race prospect.

Sweetsouthernsaint has 5 (edit: 6) winners of more than $150,000 who have either Valid Appeal or his 2nd dam Scotch Verdict (through Marco Bay) appearing in the first 3 generations. JP's Gusto is a son of Successful Appeal, Gr-1 winner at 2 years old. $2000.

Your mare's dam's best foal is a full sister to your mare, and that full sister produced a stakes horse by Imperialism. That horse has moved on but another Langfuhr-line horse, Drill, is standing in Florida. He's very nicely bred with a good race record....but for an unproven horse, JP's Gusto is $2500 cheaper.

Your mare's dam has a useful winner--not super-high-class, but got the job done--by Repent. Crown of Thorns is there in Florida, with a very good race record and a much better than average female family behind him. The Turn Capp family produces good sound racehorses and good stallions who sire good sound racehorses (Smoke Glacken, Disco Rico). Repent and his sire Louis Quatorze like a return of Grey Flight, which your mare has on her dam's side.

Finally, the broodmare sire of Sweetsouthernsaint's best runner was Waquoit, by Relaunch, which like Valid Appeal is from the In Reality line. City Wolf is out of a Relaunch mare who has produced two leading stallions (City Zip and Ghostzapper), and who returns the speed influences of Olympia and Tri Jet to your mare. His pedigree page has a lot to like...by far the best "stallion page" of the four. On the downside, of the four stallions here he has the weakest performance, and Adena tends to be a bit proud of themselves with their stud fees.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:28 pm
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These are all fantastic suggestions, and several based on angles that I hadn't picked up on during my own search. City Wolf and Csaba are very interesting to me and they are two that I hadn't considered.

Does anyone have ay opinions on Cool Coal Man or the Irish stallion Wrote? I was leaning heavily toward Wrote before I confused myself with research and now the other intriguing options.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
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About Wrote.....I can't bring myself to recommend him.

High Chaparral's best offspring wanted a long distance to run and wanted stamina breeding in the dam. Standing in both Ireland and New Zealand (and later Australia), his best foals by a long shot were out of stoutly-bred mares:

    So You Think (NZ).....out of a mare by Tights (by Nijinsky II) who won a Gr-2 stakes at 2000m
    Dundeel (NZ)....Raced in Australia as It's a Dundeel, out of a mare by major stamina influence Zabeel; his 2nd dam won Gr-1 races at 2400m
    Shoot Out (AUS), bred in NZ. His dam is by another major stamina influence in Pentire, and she is linebred to major stamina influence Mill Reef.
    Wigmore Hall (IRE), a champion in Canada, out of a mare by stamina influence Theatrical.
    Redwood (IRE) is out of a daughter of Jolypha, who was a full sister to Arc winner Dancing Brave and was herself a Gr-1 winner at 2100m and 2400m.
    Monaco Consul (NZ), Gr-1 winner at 2100m and 2500m, whose dam is a half-sister to Gr-1 winner over 1600m and 1800m
    Descardo (NZ), won Gr-1s at 2100m and 2400m

That's all his millionaires, and the majority of his Gr-1 winners. Their average win distance is about 2000m. That's far more stamina than the US racing environment allows for. Something else about High Chap, which is a BIG deal for breeding to race? All of his millionaires are colts and geldings. Of about 18 Gr-1 and Gr-2 winners, only 3 are fillies. In general, High Chap's colts outperformed his fillies at every level of racing.

If Wrote throws to his sire, not only do you risk having too stout a horse for the races available to you, you have a 50% chance of getting a filly that just won't run on.

Ouch.

As for his dam line:

Special was a very special producer indeed, but this is a weak branch of the family. There are two other stakes winners under the first three dams--one a listed winner in Germany and one a Gr-1 sprinter in Argentina. Wrote's 3rd dam's full sister Bound got all the talent and all the producing ability--the branch of Blame, Archipenko, Limit, Cease, Tend, and 2014 graded stakes winner Size. The mares in this family have been bred to some excellent stallions, including Sadlers Wells, Rahy, Rainbow Quest, Green Desert, and Exceed and Excel, and have at best been producing minor winners. Crown of Thorns' second dam produced more stakes winners all by herself than Wrote's first three dams and their daughters and granddaughters did combined, including him.

As for Wrote himself, yes, he won the 2009 BC Juvy Turf, and then (a) did not train on, and (b) did not beat a top-class field. Shakespeare Shaliyah and Daddy Nose Best were both useful Gr-3 horses, but that's it. Coalport was a solid consistent performer who caught a Gr-3 at the very end of his career. Lucky Chappy (IRE) topped out at listed class. State of Play didn't train on. Excaper was always the bridesmaid never the bride up until he was 5, at which point he won one Gr-2 race. Compare to that year's BC Juvenile, which had future Preakness winner and champion 3yo colt Lookin at Lucky, Gr-1 Wood Memorial winner Eskendereya, multiple older Gr-2 winner Aikenite, and multiple Gr-2 winner D'funnybone. Beethoven and Noble's Promise both trained on to win Gr-3s as 3yo+.

If you want a grass-bred horse, Csaba at $2500 is a better buy. He ran well as a juvenile, he trained on as an older horse, he was sound and durable, he ran on both dirt and turf, his dam was a good allowance winner with two stakes-class foals, and there is good racing talent in his family.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:39 am 
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FINALLY after 17 male G1 winners, Fenway comes through. KM was right on, it was at 2000 meters.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/in ... ertID=9669

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Give the Pope and the King of England a horse and in thirty days, they'll be stealing halters.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Posts: 1756
Wow.

The pattern for High Chaparral held for more than just the 2000m distance. Fenway is out of a mare by Zabeel, so there's the breeding to stamina again. She is also out of one of the CLASSIEST families in the Australian Stud Book, that of Australian Derby winner Denise's Joy.

Denise's Joy is ancestress of Champagne Stakes winner Euphoria, Kalgoorlie Cup winner Forehand, Golden Rose winner Stryker, Queen of the Turf winner Light Up The World, Stradbroke Handicap winner and good sire Thorn Park, JRA Plate winner Pentastic, Queensland Oaks winner Miss Danehill, South African champion filly Joie de Grise, four-time Gr-1 winner Tuesday Joy, Australian Oaks winner Sunday Joy, and the incredible 8-time Gr-1 winner and multiple champion mare More Joyous.

This is the quality of female family it took for High Chap to get a Gr-1 winning filly!


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