Blacktype female family - but sire selection challenge
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:27 pm
Hi Everyone - Please bare with me as this is a little long, however, once you read it I think you will understand why.
I am new to this forum (actually didn't know it existed until recently). I am also fairly new to the Thoroughbred Industry, but not the world of horses (Quarter Horses and Egyptian Arabs). Following Thoroughbred racing has always been a passion and I said - some day I'm going to get involved even if it costs me (and it is costing me lol). I picked up two mares. One I will post on seeking advice later, but my focus is on my mare I reference in my Subject line. My mare's name is Majestic Chick. She is by Majestic Warrior by Express Chick out of Hennessy and her grand dam sire is Kingmambo. Having studied and watched every race, Majestic was a late maturing three year old who was beginning to hit the board (a 1st and 3rd in 8 tries), but on the night she won, she was claimed by a woman who thought she could afford to keep her training and racing, only to turn her out to pasture as she went broke in the first two months. Sadly, this mare sat for a year and a half until I happened across her on craigslist. She had a clean bill of health, so I bought her as my first starter mare for $4k. On the dam side, in the first four generations there have been two black-type winners. Her grand-dam is the dam of Gozzip Girl and the fourth generation dam produced Brocco (who is still standing at stud in Australia and has had some black-type and graded/stakes placed offspring). In addition, the third generation female was herself stakes placed. In total - within just the first 5 female generations (excluding my mare) there are 11 graded stakes winners/graded stakes placed/stakes placed offspring, in addition to the two black-type winners. Furthermore, a number of the offspring within these 5 female generations are producers of black-type and graded and stakes winners or placers. So the female family is fairly strong overall. However, my mare's dam has been bred on a more commercial scale, rather than a racing scale, in my opinion, and to date - Majestic is her only known winner (One of her offspring is racing in Mexico and his race history is unknown at this time). Majestic's dam has only produced three offspring thus far and is in foal again for this year so the family is fairly young.
For my mare's first mating, I bred her to Revolutionary.
So here is where I come to the challenge. Commercially, my mare matches up well with a lot of sires with multiple A+++ nicks on the Werk Rating scale and numerous A++ nicks through the Truenicks rating system. But as I have studied and researched this entire winter, I came upon a very interesting discovery: The two Black-type winners were both sired by sons of Roberto - Kris S and Dynaformer, with only Gozzip Girl sired by Dynaformer, all the rest of the graded/stakes winners/placed resulted from a mating with Kris S. Obviously these two son's of Roberto are a strong nick with the female family of my mare. But sadly, from Roberto directly - there are no direct male descendants of Roberto left alive and the only direct influence from him has been passed on to stallions currently standing by either Kris S. or Dynaformer. There are a few of their sons that remain (though some are out of my price range). However, when I test the werk nick rating and the Truenicks rating with these offspring none of them Nick out better than a B as Roberto and his sons haven't historically nicked well with the Seattle Slew offspring. Additionally, many of the Kris. S and Dynaformer sons standing in the US were mated with lines of Mr. Prospector or Storm Cat and my mare already has enough Mr. P on her dam side and her dam sire is by Storm Cat - so I'm not interested in duplicating either of them any further. This narrows my focus tremendously leaving the majority of options limited. Here is who I have narrowed it down to:
Dynaformer
Rocket Legs in MA is one possibility, but his fee is private.
Dynamometer in SC at a fee of $1,000 (but he is listed on one site for a fee of $1000 for 2015 and on Thoroughbred Pedigree Query as having died in 2013)
Dynameaux in TX - but this gives my mare another copy of Raise the Native which I would like to avoid
Kris S.
Blowing Rock in Florida for $5,000
Kris S as the Dam Sire
Awesome Bet in LA
Corollary in SC
Senor Swinger in PA
Talbot in NE listed as private
Dynaformer as the Dam Sire
Stately Victor in OH
Strong Contender in IN
Glasnost in IN
Monterey Jazz in NM
Senor Enrico - for sale for $145k - out of my league
Roberto as the dam sire
Solid Hunch - Canada
Polish - LA
Sunshine Forever (Roberto son) as Dam Sire
G. W.'s d'Oro in LA
These are my options - save for ArchArchArch - who is sired by Arch who is by Kris S.
Any thoughts, ideas or input is welcomed.
Majority of these are not very commercial and right now I can't afford to race, but I also want to be smart in my breeding decisions. I want her offspring to standout and be something, not just be another fancy name in the ring.
I am new to this forum (actually didn't know it existed until recently). I am also fairly new to the Thoroughbred Industry, but not the world of horses (Quarter Horses and Egyptian Arabs). Following Thoroughbred racing has always been a passion and I said - some day I'm going to get involved even if it costs me (and it is costing me lol). I picked up two mares. One I will post on seeking advice later, but my focus is on my mare I reference in my Subject line. My mare's name is Majestic Chick. She is by Majestic Warrior by Express Chick out of Hennessy and her grand dam sire is Kingmambo. Having studied and watched every race, Majestic was a late maturing three year old who was beginning to hit the board (a 1st and 3rd in 8 tries), but on the night she won, she was claimed by a woman who thought she could afford to keep her training and racing, only to turn her out to pasture as she went broke in the first two months. Sadly, this mare sat for a year and a half until I happened across her on craigslist. She had a clean bill of health, so I bought her as my first starter mare for $4k. On the dam side, in the first four generations there have been two black-type winners. Her grand-dam is the dam of Gozzip Girl and the fourth generation dam produced Brocco (who is still standing at stud in Australia and has had some black-type and graded/stakes placed offspring). In addition, the third generation female was herself stakes placed. In total - within just the first 5 female generations (excluding my mare) there are 11 graded stakes winners/graded stakes placed/stakes placed offspring, in addition to the two black-type winners. Furthermore, a number of the offspring within these 5 female generations are producers of black-type and graded and stakes winners or placers. So the female family is fairly strong overall. However, my mare's dam has been bred on a more commercial scale, rather than a racing scale, in my opinion, and to date - Majestic is her only known winner (One of her offspring is racing in Mexico and his race history is unknown at this time). Majestic's dam has only produced three offspring thus far and is in foal again for this year so the family is fairly young.
For my mare's first mating, I bred her to Revolutionary.
So here is where I come to the challenge. Commercially, my mare matches up well with a lot of sires with multiple A+++ nicks on the Werk Rating scale and numerous A++ nicks through the Truenicks rating system. But as I have studied and researched this entire winter, I came upon a very interesting discovery: The two Black-type winners were both sired by sons of Roberto - Kris S and Dynaformer, with only Gozzip Girl sired by Dynaformer, all the rest of the graded/stakes winners/placed resulted from a mating with Kris S. Obviously these two son's of Roberto are a strong nick with the female family of my mare. But sadly, from Roberto directly - there are no direct male descendants of Roberto left alive and the only direct influence from him has been passed on to stallions currently standing by either Kris S. or Dynaformer. There are a few of their sons that remain (though some are out of my price range). However, when I test the werk nick rating and the Truenicks rating with these offspring none of them Nick out better than a B as Roberto and his sons haven't historically nicked well with the Seattle Slew offspring. Additionally, many of the Kris. S and Dynaformer sons standing in the US were mated with lines of Mr. Prospector or Storm Cat and my mare already has enough Mr. P on her dam side and her dam sire is by Storm Cat - so I'm not interested in duplicating either of them any further. This narrows my focus tremendously leaving the majority of options limited. Here is who I have narrowed it down to:
Dynaformer
Rocket Legs in MA is one possibility, but his fee is private.
Dynamometer in SC at a fee of $1,000 (but he is listed on one site for a fee of $1000 for 2015 and on Thoroughbred Pedigree Query as having died in 2013)
Dynameaux in TX - but this gives my mare another copy of Raise the Native which I would like to avoid
Kris S.
Blowing Rock in Florida for $5,000
Kris S as the Dam Sire
Awesome Bet in LA
Corollary in SC
Senor Swinger in PA
Talbot in NE listed as private
Dynaformer as the Dam Sire
Stately Victor in OH
Strong Contender in IN
Glasnost in IN
Monterey Jazz in NM
Senor Enrico - for sale for $145k - out of my league
Roberto as the dam sire
Solid Hunch - Canada
Polish - LA
Sunshine Forever (Roberto son) as Dam Sire
G. W.'s d'Oro in LA
These are my options - save for ArchArchArch - who is sired by Arch who is by Kris S.
Any thoughts, ideas or input is welcomed.
Majority of these are not very commercial and right now I can't afford to race, but I also want to be smart in my breeding decisions. I want her offspring to standout and be something, not just be another fancy name in the ring.