Aldebaran

Discussion and analysis of thoroughbred stallions.

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Intrinsic Worth
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Postby Intrinsic Worth » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:03 pm

I knew the guy who exercised him while at the track and even he said that Mr. P did not have a lot of bone. He was nowhere near 16H.
All men are equal on the turf - or under it.

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FOS
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Postby FOS » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:27 am

hi roving boy

You wrote "While it is evident that you are "never in doubt", could it be that you are "sometimes mistaken"?

roving boy...I appreciate your respectful comments and questions...but be assured...in the case of Mr. Prospector...I respectfully submit...I am not "mistaken."

I enjoy discussing Mr Prospector...but I suggest that to debate (or defend) what I experienced and saw (countless times...for years) first hand...would probably be futile. But to share my experiences and observations..now that's different altogether.

roving boy...respectfully...I suggest that many of the so-called "opinions" relating to early-Mr. Prospector are probably about as credible as the claims that supposedly many individuals have made thru the years insisting (and apparently believing) that they were the direct underbidders on Seattle Slew...hmmm.

For the fun of it...the next time you're at the sales...you might inquire about Seattle Slew (in a similar fashion that you inquired about Mr. Prospector)...I suggest you may come accross some that insist (seriously) they were (or knew) a direct underbidder on Seattle Slew.

Back on point...I submit that my up-close-and-personal observations (and first hand experiences) re: the GREAT Mr. Prospector were priceless...and NOT misinterpreted.

roving boy...you wrote "In the course of this week's January Sale I have spoken with several people who knew Mr. P well."

Did you ask them why Mr Prospector was the highest-priced yearling of all-time (at that time)? Did they even know that?

I suggest it's because Butch Savin's trainer (Jimmy Crowell) thought he was the best horse in the sale coupled with the fact that Mr Savin also wanted a horse with stallion credentials...voila...the Raise a Native, Gold Digger colt...and obviously Mr. Savin was willing to pay the necessary price.

And your sources suggest he was a small...light boned...unmasculine yearling colt? What's wrong with this picture?

And yes...roving boy..."it is in the eye of the beholder" (as you wrote)...

...with that in mind I suggest that disparities in honest opinions (when based on agenda-free...thorough...complete...FACTUAL information)...are not unhealthy...and are certainly possible.

But one has to understand and be able to evaluate what's standing before them...and it is abundantly clear that some are better at that than others.

Mr. Prospector...WOW...GREAT...and there may NEVER be another as versatile and as important as him...arguably the greatest all-around sire of all time...what a horse.

Best to you always.

Respectfully

ef
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Postby ef » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:47 am

FOS,

You wrote: "Did you ask them why Mr Prospector was the highest-priced yearling of all-time (at that time)? Did they even know that?"

FOS, this is absolutely incorrect. Mr. P. did top Keeneland July in 1971, bringing $220,000. However, several Keeneland July yearlings had brought more than him:

In 1967, Majestic Prince (a son of Raise a Native) sold for $250,000.
In 1968, Reine Enchanteur, a Sea Bird filly, sold for $405,000.
In 1970, Crowned Prince (a son of Raise a Native) sold for $510,000.

FOS, respectfully, you sometimes make it difficult to debate and learn from each other when you present yourself as one who absolutely knows the truth. As is obvious with this yearling sale data, you can occasionally be mistaken or misremember.

Conformation is subjective; auction prices mean little. How many sons of Storm Cat have brought large prices mostly just for being sons of Storm Cat? Mr. P may have brought a good price despite being "light of bone," etc, because he was a son of the hot sire Raise a Native.


Again, I mean no disrespect; I merely mean to suggest that you back away from statements like those you just made to roving boy- that you alone know the truth about Mr. P's conformation, and these other individuals do not. I think these kind of statements can frustrate people. I personally found myself extremely frustrated when you stated that Giant's Causeway was already a failure on the dirt, despite the repeated evidence I tried to provide that his "American" mares were largely a bunch of late-developing, turfy mares. When other people offer ideas on boards like this, I personally find it more enriching when individuals debate these ideas rather than unmovingly clinging to their previous stances. There can be little meaningful debate when one person flat out states that he cannot be mistaken. If we cannot learn from each other, why are we participating on this board?

Again, this is just my opinion, and I really do mean no disrespect. I respect your opinions. i just sometimes wish you would leave more room for others' opinions.

respectfully,

ef

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FOS
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Postby FOS » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:03 am

hi ef ... hi all

Thanks much...Brain Freeze...very late.

Should have written "Did you ask them why Mr Prospector was the highest-priced yearling (Keeneland) in 1971 (and one of the highest-priced of all-time)? Did they even know that?"

You might enjoy this photo...certainly not a youthful Mr. Prospector...but might shed some light on the "light-bone" commentary.

Mr. Prospector photo

Your respectful thoughts and insights are appreciated.

Best to you.

Respectfully

mary syers
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Postby mary syers » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:28 am

Can I ask an off the wall question? Raise a Native and Nashua were very attractive horses. Mr. Prospector is a lot of things, but he is not an attractive horse. Where does this look come from? The mare line? Mary

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Intrinsic Worth
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Postby Intrinsic Worth » Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:27 am

If you see a picture of Seeking the Gold, he looks like he has adequate bone for his size, but when you see him in person, he looks very fragile. The same thing goes for Mr. Prospector.
All men are equal on the turf - or under it.

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Postby Michael » Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:32 am

Aldebaran=Rhythm=Miner's Mark=Tank's Prospect=all deep closers by Mr. Prospector=failures at stud

I attended my first Keeneland July sale in 1971 and was priviledged to see Mr. P sell. I can tell you that he was an outstanding individual (with a nice head!) whose only apparent fault was a pair of offset knees. He was muscular, typey, not too big, not too disimilar from the Miswaki look.

Of course, he changed as all horses do after that, and I didn't see him again until the mid 1980's. The "head" was by then becoming apparent, and he had certainly become more racey looking.

I have seen a photo of Mr. P taken at that 1971 sale, but do not have access to it. One of the two KY magazines ran it sometime near his death. Viewing it should clear up any misconception about his conformation as a young horse.

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FOS
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Postby FOS » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:31 pm

hi mary syers

I suggest that Mr Prospector was a very masculine-looking...ruggedly-handsome...robust...very healthy-type as a race horse and as a young Florida stallion.

As the years passed...his solid...robust body (which was impressively packed into a 16-hand-high package)...seemed to shrink (for lack of a better description)...and his youthful and rugged good-looks seemed to noticeably diminish. But his prowess as a super-star stallion continued.

The photo is actually (to a large degree) how I remember Mr. Prospector in his later years at Claiborne...barely a shadow of what he was (in his early years). I suggest the photo exposes a look in which his "shrunken" and less-than-robust-looking body seemed to create a perception that his head was disproportionately large and (if I may) less than movie-star handsome.

I assure you he was very well-proportioned...ruggedly-handsome and very robust as a younger horse.

He was very special...and (I suggest) touched many.

Respectfully

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FOS
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Postby FOS » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:35 pm

hi Michael

you wrote "Aldebaran=Rhythm=Miner's Mark=Tank's Prospect=all deep closers by Mr. Prospector=failures at stud"

Very interesting...

Best to you.

Respectfully

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Flight
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Postby Flight » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:47 am

Hi Michael

Just noticed that you didn't fancy Miners Mark.

What about Traditionally????

I was thinking of sending a mare or two to him next season after seeing some of his yearlings recently.

Also, when you mention "closers", does that mean horses that run on late?

Cheers

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Postby Karie » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:54 am

Not that I really wanted any part of this thread, but I looked up Mr. Prospector in the 1997 Blood horse Stallion Directory. He was listed as 16 Hands.
I have found that if they are listed with the height its pretty accurate. If they don't list a height then the horses is Small....... like Rahy! ha ha well no He is listed as 15.1 which is accurate.. oh well.

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Postby mary syers » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:15 am

Could it be, if the slow ones are sound, that the fast ones outrun their capacity--i.e. They become unsound due to the stresses that running that hard places on their joints and tendons? Mary

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Postby Michael » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:45 am

Flight,

I would be vary wary of Traditionally for several reasons.

1) His full brothers have by and large disappointed, and they were better racehorses than him.

2) He ran only one really good race, and that was going long on the dirt. He won it from far off the pace. I do not believe he was a genuine G1 horse.

3) Very little in his pedigree suggests that his offspring will favor turf.

4) The most successful sons of Mr. P at stud were sprinters or sprinter/milers who showed quite a bit of pace. In Australiasia, the best sons of Mr. P have followed suit. Straight Strike was cheap speed in U.S. but was champion sire in NZ; Varick was good up to a mile.

This same phenomenon held true for Bold Ruler, whose best siring son in Australasia by far was the speedy Taipan.

I've always believed that a stallion should fit the same mold as his sire. If he is a different type of racehorse, he may well become a much different type of sire. This may defeat the purpose of breeding to a certain sire line in the first place. JMO

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Postby roving boy » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:36 am

Commenting on size as listed in the Stallion Register, have you ever noticed how few horses are listed at less than 16 hands? If you inspect these stallions you will find more than a few that are without question less than 16 hands, although the Register may say otherwise.

Sometimes the best indicator of whether a horse is really the size listed is if the farm stands any stallions they list at less than 16 hands!
Roving Boy

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Flight
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Postby Flight » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:27 pm

Michael

Thank you for your comments.

We are in a bit of a quandry at the moment as we have three ND line mares who I would prefer not to send back to ND line sires if possible.

There are far too many horses being bred over here with three or even four male crosses of ND in the first four or five generations. Two crosses is commonplace. This cannot be good for the industry in the long term especially given the number of Danehill sons that are or will be standing at stud.

We saw both Traditionally and Faltaat in New Zealand last November and I didn't mind either of them. There were some good judges that bought Traditionally yearlings at the Magic Millions and they were quite impressed with the sire. I guess time will tell. :)

We had a share in Shot Of Thunder (Thunder Gulch) who unfortunately was put down on the first day of our breeding season last year and we are now trying to find an appropriate Mr P line sire or two for the coming seasons and/or one from the Star Kingdom line.

What do you think of King Cugat? Some of his yearlings looked good and sold well at the recent Magic Millions.

Hawk Wing is another who caught my eye. Can't wait to see him next season once he has let down.

Decisions, decisions............

BTW, are you still planning on coming to Sydney?

Cheers