A.P. Indy-- false advertising?

[Coquinerie]

I know many people on this board have taken visible sides in the Indy/Storm Cat tussle. But I was curious as to why Indy can be touted as the "go-to" sire for Classic horses when he has yet to sire one with the best book in the world?

On the flip side, Storm Cat, who is often critisized for throwing brittle sprinters has sires a Classics winner, the longest US Classic to boot.

Now I understand there's more to a pedigree than the sire when it comes to stamina etc, but I was just curious as to why its just assumed Indy is the best way to go?

Yes he throws foals who relish two turns (for the most part) but many of them have extremely bad feet and often dont have enough speed. I was speaking with a well-known pedigree advisor about next year plans for my filly Coquinerie and mentioned how much I love an Indy son and two of that particular son's new stallion prospects. She told me she'd much rather breed to the unknown than to a 300k stud fee of Indy unless she had a high class Mr. Prospector mare who showed brilliance.

Any thoughts on why Indy hasnt sired a Classics winner and what he needs from his mares?

[kimberley mine]

...but many of them have extremely bad feet and often dont have enough speed...

...high class Mr. Prospector mare who showed brilliance...

I think you have answered your own question.

1. If I have an expensive race prospect, can I keep her sound?
2. If she is sound, will she be fast enough to go?
3. If she is fast enough go, can I keep her sound long enough to last the whole season?

Mineshaft couldn't. Pulpit couldn't. AP Adventure couldn't. With Ability couldn't, to her great misfortune.

Note: I am NOT bashing AP Indy. His foals run and win the big races--but there is that one gaping hole. I think that like most stamina sires, his foals need lots of time and the 3yo spring classics may be too early for them. (The same is true of Broad Brush, by and large.) I have no idea why his foals have not had great success with the BC races--except that there is only one per division per year, and no "classics" for the older horses aside from them. Numbers and probability take over there.

[FOS]

Hi coquinerie

As with many stallions...the advertising...promotion...marketing...spin...hype...etc etc etc often leaves plenty of room for interpretation. And often things seem blurred.

Regardless...in the case of AP Indy...I suggest that All Things Considered...certainly he is at the very least A genuine "go to" sire for those with classic aspirations...and he may be (in the minds of many) THE go-to guy.

Certainly Grindstone (Ky Derby winner and sire of a Belmont winner)...Elusive Quality (sire of a Derby and Preakness winner)...Maria's Mon (sire of a Ky Derby winner)...Thunder Gulch (sire of a Preakness and Belmont winner)...Our Emblem (sire of a Ky Derby and Preakness winner)...Quiet American (sire of a Ky Derby and Preakness winner)...Cryptoclearance (sire of a Belmont winner)...etc...have proven they can get classic winners.

And if Mr Prospector...or Seattle Slew...or Unbridled etc etc...were still alive we might be having a different discussion...but those (and many other) wonderful and classic sires are no longer with us.

Therefore...All Things Considered...I might agree that even though other living sires have produced American "classic" (Ky Derby, Preakness, Belmont) winners and A.P. INDY has not...yet...an argument can be made (and probably a strong one) that A.P. Indy may very well be THE sire of choice for those wishing to breed and/or race the classic hopeful...and can afford to pay the price. And with all due respect to the fillies...we seem to be excluding the Triple Tiara. hmmm

When one considers A.P. Indy's own 3-year-old classic victory (a win in the Belmont S) coupled with his classic pedigree (by triple crown winner Seattle Slew and out of a dam whose sire...Secretariat...was a triple crown winner)...and from a family which includes G1 Belmont winner Lemon Drop Kid...then factor-in the two-turn style (often G1) that many of A.P. Indy's 3-year-old (and older also) offspring seem to excel at regularly (examples: G1 Fla Derby winner Friends Lake...G1 Ky Oaks winner Secret Status...G1 Ky Derby (2nd) and Belmont (2nd) Aptitude...G1 Alabama winner Runup the Colors etc)...it is clear why some (if not many) might consider A.P. Indy THE go-to sire for those with classic dreams.

From the for-what-it's-worth department...Storm Cat has had 867 foals of Derby age through 2001 (per Blood-Horse)...A.P. Indy has had 543...

...there's still plenty of time for both SC and AP to accomplish lots more...but it is clear that Storm Cat has had 324 more chances at the brass ring then A.P. Indy. Just something to think about.

Respectfully

[Coquinerie]

Ok, how many foals of 3 and older did Storm Cat have when he got Tabasco Cat? Just to be fair.

[llbean]

Whenever people hype up a AP Indy on the Triple Crown trial, I chuckle inwardly a little.

I tend to agree with Kimberly Mine that the colts are too slow maturing to win the Derby in this Country. The Oaks is the day before, but the level of competition is not as high even if you take into account the sex difference.

Mineshaft getting a classic winner, now that would be a different story.

It's possible that the AP Indys tend to tail off at the end of the year; and that plays a role in his get not winning the BC Races (that's pure speculation on my part though). Another possiblilty is that they just can't get the job done againt "All-Star" fields.

-llbean

[Betsy]

Llbean, I have to strongly disagree with your post stating that AP Indy's offspring can't get it done in the big races. The races his offspring have won are some of the biggest, most important stakes in the US - the TC isn't the be all and end all of racing. His offspring have won the KY Oaks, Pimlico Special, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Woodward, Stephen Foster, BC Juvenile Fillies (which negates your comment that his offspring tail off later in the year), Donn Handicap, Ruffian Handicap, Personal Ensign, Blue Grass, etc...

I see a lot of Indy dislike on boards, and I'm not sure why. He sires horses who can stretch out or who have blazing speed (Pulpit, who did stretch out successfully), Old Trieste, AP Assay, etc...). I'm certainly not happy that he hasn't sired a winner of a TC race but that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best sires in the world. He's certainly better than many sires who have sired the winner of some of those races -

I'm not quite sure I understand your point about Mineshaft...? He was a terrific horse and I think he'll be a terrific sire.

[Nessa]

They mature later than most just like A P Indy. They tend to be big and I don't think many trainers now days know what to do with big immature two year olds. I think the main reason is that many who aren't fragile are treated as if they are because of the value they represent as studs and in the end they become fragile from standing in a stall all day.

[llbean]

Hi Betsy,

I forgot about Tempera; still, you have to understand that these days some big name races don't have very deep fields by historical standards.

Thus I speculated that perhaps the AP Indys can't get it done against the "All-Star" fields of the BC (though you are very correct that Tempera did).

My comment on Mineshaft reflected my opinion that he could very well be an significantly better stallion than even his old man on account of his race record (especially times), amazing female family, and the Mr Prospector in him (which is stronger than the Mr P in Pulpit by far).

At least Mineshaft will be a better sire of Triple Crown Race Winners than his sire, I think.

I really think the "Blazing Speed" comment was a major overreach; try not to miss the forest from the trees (and also try taking a closer look at that Pulpit tree).

Nessa makes some very interesting and important points.

-llbean

[freddymo]

There is only one SC. Maybe the next 324 foals produce a TC winner maybe not. That being said AP Indy for 300k is more then I would spend. Storm Cat - My Flag = SFF..AP Indy - My Flag = Leading the Parade. I know that is a very unfair example ,but I think it kind of somes it up. Indy's can plod around at there best can long and fast for a 10 plus furlongs. SC's at there best can explode when you press the button early in the race or late in the race. 200k is a lot of cash unless you get Leading the Parade instead of SFF.

just a thought

[Betsy]

thanks for replying, llbean. LOL If Indy continues on this path and never sires the winner of a TC race, I'll still be happy. IMO, he's a top-notch sire. I just don't know how others (not necessarily you) don't see that.

I have to admit I'm puzzled, though, by your Pulpit comment. He was a brilliant colt, and he ran extremely well in a tough Derby even while he was suffering a career-ending injury. Old Trieste DID have blazing speed- check out some of the fractions he set in his wins.

I adore Mineshaft, so we agree on him.

Freddy, I think it is very unfair to base an opinion of Indy on the mere fact that he doesn't match up well with My Flag. Sorry, but what does that mean? Every sire but Mr. P. pretty much has failed with Personal Ensign - does that mean they are not great sires? I am not comparing Indy to Storm Cat, or to anyone, but frankly - I don't care how the horses get it done. His offspring do get it done - witness their record in graded stakes. That says it all.

[freddymo]

Betsy, Granted Mr.P did very well with PE. I seem to remember a nice filly named My Flag by Easy Goer and the Unbridled filly Salute showed some abilty last year. The only major dude was that Indy colt. Look Indy is a great sire but he does throw his fair share of plodding expensive 2 other then horses. Big robust animals that are far from explosive. Mind you i loved Mineshaft. I don't remember to many Phipps family Indy Champions. It seems there stock cross to SC a lot better. Do you know if they sent SFF to Indy? I would have thought not but I have no idea. Wouldn't she cross incredibly well to Seeking the Gold being that she is a SC. I never looked at it close enough to be sure.

Betsy I know just enough about this to have an opinion I am as far from an expert as you could imagine.
FM

[Betsy]

Betsy, Granted Mr.P did very well with PE. I seem to remember a nice filly named My Flag by Easy Goer and the Unbridled filly Salute showed some abilty last year. The only major dude was that Indy colt. Look Indy is a great sire but he does throw his fair share of plodding expensive 2 other then horses. Big robust animals that are far from explosive. Mind you i loved Mineshaft. I don't remember to many Phipps family Indy Champions. It seems there stock cross to SC a lot better. Do you know if they sent SFF to Indy? I would have thought not but I have no idea. Wouldn't she cross incredibly well to Seeking the Gold being that she is a SC. I never looked at it close enough to be sure.

Betsy I know just enough about this to have an opinion I am as far from an expert as you could imagine.
FM

Freddy, I enjoy reading your posts, esp. because you are such a fan of the Phipps, and you do know what you are talking about. The Phipps haven't had a whole lot of luck with most sires lately, not just Indy. Sure, there's been SFF, but there have also been other Storm Cats that haven't worked out......same with Seeking the Gold, Danzig, etc...They used to have success with Danzig, but he's gotten older and hasn't had all that many great crops lately. Perhaps Indy just doesn't cross well with their mares - that's certainly a possibility. Of course, breeding is a crap shoot anyway.

I apologize if I got defensive, but I guess I'm too used to seeing Indy knocked on the forums and I just had to say something.

I appreciate your input!

[Roguelet]

OK, you guys knew this was coming... I just have to jump in here. I'm going to keep my opinion very narrow-reaching... that is to say, based solely on what I've witnessed with my own two eyes, here close to home. I think anyone trying to really compare Storm Cat to A.P. Indy is barking up the wrong tree. Let's not compare apples to oranges... let's recognize what each sire does best... what each one can bring to a breeding program... then focus on which one fits best into a particular program based on it's goals and expectations.

The A.P. Indy son that I know well is a gorgeous animal... perfect conformation, beautiful mover, just a perfect picture in my book. A real "looker." The Storm Cat sons that I've seen are not anywhere near as pretty and are not conformationally correct, although everyone knows that doesn't necessarily stop these horses from kicking butt on the track!

So, let's say you have a mare that matches exactly as well with the A.P. Indy line as she does with the Storm Cat line (I know, not going to happen, but work with me...) Here's how I see it:

If you want an early maturing speed horse who will probably be successful early-on and who will more than likely win you some return on your investment relatively quickly, but may burn out and be done with racing at an early age (all your fire and glory early on, so to speak)... go to the Storm Cat line.

If you want a later maturing horse who probably shouldn't even bother to start until it's a 3YO, who will probably want more distance but who will probably also get better with age and be successful for a longer period of time IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE LATE MATURING-DISTANCE LOVING THING AND ACTUALLY DO RIGHT BY THE HORSE IN THE BEGINNING INSTEAD OF PUSHING IT TO RACE BEFORE IT'S READY... go to the A.P. Indy line.

Some want the early 2YO superstars, some are willing to wait for a horse that will do well at distance and get better with age... thank goodness for variety!

I think there's a place for both lines, depending on your goals. We bred to a Storm Cat son and got a colt who is a 2YO this year. He is one that we plan to race as a 2YO, because his sire's get seem to burn up the track at 2 and 3 but then they typically tail off and are done... this horse NEEDS to race early or we've probably wasted a good opportunity with him.

We have a lot of offspring of a certain A.P. Indy son, and they get to play and romp and be horses until they're 3, then they go into training... and we expect them to start doing well as LATE 3YOs and get better as 4YOs, 5YOs, etc...

If you have an understanding of what the offspring should do and train them accordingly, you should be able to succeed with either line. Now, I'm fully aware that there is another 50% of each horse's pedigree to consider in these situations... but since this is a comparison of stallions, I'm throwing out the bottom side for the sake of this arguement.

If I were breeding for the "big sales" hoping to attract a buyer who was looking for a 2YO superstar, I would go more with the Storm Cat line. But, as a small breeder in a regional market who breeds to race and sell (but sell privately) I prefer the A.P. Indy line.

I hope to have fun and make money with our Storm Cat line colt, but for the most part, I'd rather have horses that may be successful for 5-6 years on the track and then be marketable in other careers. Or, if a horse that I breed doesn't make it to the track, I want other options open... such as H/J, dressage, eventing... people don't want crooked legged or knock-kneed or "not-so-pretty" horses for this type of thing, no matter who the sire is!

I've heard a lot of talk about "small feet" and "bad feet" in the A.P. Indy's... I've not actually seen that myself, although I'm not discounting the experience of others. None of ours have foot problems... they're actually as a rule very correct, well-balanced, good looking individuals who stay sound. Interestingly, our "smallest hooved" broodie is from the Halo sire line, and our broodie with the "worst" hooves is from the Gallant Man line. Other than that, we've got pretty good feet out here, and we've not had any hoof problems with any of our Indy foals.

Again, this is just my personal (long-winded) opinion as to what fits best into our personal program... there are other people with vastly different goals who's programs work better with other bloodlines. I don't think anyone can argue against the statement that both Storm Cat and A.P. Indy have their place in the market and they are different places... but each one is important in the overall scheme of things.

[freddymo]

Betsy, actually Survivialist winner of this weekend Gotham is a Danzig colt. It helps to have Miner game full to (Seeking the Gold). Defer won the Laurel Futurity last year again Danzig. Good Reward-SC and Heavenly Prize won the Hollywood Furturity Grade 1 and Pure Prize a full brother was a very nice animal and might be a very good sire?I would have thought that some good would have come from Indy. Here is a list of the misses: Miners Game had Polish Miner and Survivialist both Danzig both graded winners,Trading the Indy was a dud. Fantastic Find had Finders Fee and the Indy colt was a dud. They bred Finders fee to Indy 04 colt. Pure Profit dam of Educate Risk and Heavenly prize and Hidden reserve her Indy foal a dud? the list keeps going sad. World class broodies with little to show? Who knows why?

[ef]

I'm not going to be subtle (and I'm preparing to duck for cover), I think all these A.P. Indy/Storm Cat stereotypes are basically crap. Our conceptions of these horses as breeders, fans, and handicappers is completely altered by the "mass opinion" of the media (including major hype and stallion advertising) and the general public. Storm Cat has ALWAYS sired good two year olds, good three year olds, AND good older horses- look at his early record, with major winners at 4 and up. examples: Harlan, Desert Stormer, Mistle Cat, etc. Did his runners get more precocious as Storm Cat got older? Of course not- they are simply retired early because they are worth so much more. Like absolutely EVERY sire of fast two year olds, some don't train on, or are even retired before age 3. The Storm Cats simply receive more attention for it because they are so insanely hyped (i.e., One Cool Cat, Hennessy, etc). The vast majority of Storm Cat's top two year olds do, in fact, train on: Sweet Catomine, Consolidator, Storm Flag Flying, Raging Fever, Aljabr, Giant's Causeway, Finder's Fee, Sardula, etc). The failures are always more publicized and better remembered in people's heads.

This is an even more controversial view, but I think A.P. Indy's late developing stuff is also largely crap. He sires distance loving horses who are always, in my opinion, about the same degree of fast, from 3 on. Some appear to develop (in my opinion) because all of their faster contemporaries have been retired, having already proven themselves (such "late developers" include Olmodavor, Congrats, Tomisue's Delight, Stephen Got Even). US racing is littered with A.P. Indy's who came to the forefront when stretched out in distance at three and were supposed to develop into superstars as they got older and just...didn't- A.P. Adventure, Friends Lake, Gradepoint, A.P. Valentine, Jilbab, Royal Indy, Runup the Colors, Indy Five Hundred, Accelerator, etc, etc, etc! Mineshaft is one A.P. Indy I can think of who was an honest-to-goodness, top class late developer, and that's probably because his ability was hidden by his early career on turf. Golden Missile was probably another. I'm sure there are more, but in general, I think this A.P. Indy "late developer" thing is as overplayed as the Storm Cat "precocious sprinter" thing. When the exceptions to a rule become as frequent as those that support the rule, the rule is bunk!

Both of these stallions are wonderful; both have sired top, top runners. Let's not try to cram their records into boxes that just don't fit!