Put on your thinking caps

[Vindicated]

I am having a bit of a think on this one

Since Thanksgiving we have had 4 horses die-Very abnormal, we only keep between 20-30 head at any given time-But the circumstances have had us and our vet wondering what the **** is going on-so following are circumstances and descriptions of all of the instances-if anyone has any ideas-let me know-getting a bit paraniod-the only common threads with all four are a) they live here, and b) they were all over 25

1st 27+ grade mare-no known health problems, no previous issues at all-minor old stifle injury-no colics or other issues since we had purchased her 7+ years earlier-Very easy keeper, lived outside all of her life, grew a great coat in the winter-never any issues-appeared to have been in great health until
Found the morning after Thanksgiving (around 8:30 am) in the pasture down, alive, but covered in snow-I had fed Thanksgiving evening (7 pm)myself and know she was right there waiting for her hay-looked bright ect.-After she was helped up (with some struggle) she was brought in and dried and blanketed-Called the vet-instructed to keep her warm and watch her-Vitals (resp, temp, pulse, and cap refill well within normal range-gum color pink)-spent the day standing still and laying down-no rolling, The only thing notable at that time was a minor lack of coordination when getting up-about 6 pm the coordination deteriated to struggling to get up-at 8:30 I left her-no notable changes in condition in the last two hours-roughly 15 minutes after getting in the house (to eat and warm up a bit) the stable hand was at the door telling me the mare was down and seizing-in what time it took for me to put my boots and coat on and get to the barn (500ft) she was 95% dead when I got in her stall-The vet and I (hypothetically only) decided on either a tumor, stroke or something of that manner

2nd 3 weeks later-25 Year old TB (grey) Gelding-Melanomas, hard keeper-stayed at about a 4 to 5 on the condition scale no matter what we did-Was ridden and jumped night before (about 1'6"-was not sweating when finished-more than conditioned to complete task) No notable changes in gait, temperment, condition at 9pm the night before
Found 8am down in stall-obviously had been unsuccessfull trying to stand for quite some time, gashed his head scraped him self up and was starting to get shocky-Vet was called immediatly (was at the farm before his assistant called me back-10 minutes tops) Tried for 45 minutes to hoist him too his feet-severe lack of coordination in the hind end-Decided to let him rest w/seditive and painkillers for a while and try again in 3 hours-at 3 1/2 hours hoisted him to his feet with mechanical help-could not keep his feet under him-euthanized at that time-Due to his condition the night before (as good as always) determined stroke or other sudden onset nerological issue-

3rd-6 weeks ago- 40+ pony mare-heavey, easy keeper-otherwise, stoic-had been having problems breathing (the barn had gotten a bit dusty) We put her outside on a nice 40 degree night (rained a bit early morning) found up but lethargic the next morning (outside-different pasture as the first) Brought her in-she was damp on the outside but the rain had not penetrated to the skin-dried & blanketed-shaking no rolling ect-Called Vet-first thing out of his mouth was "it was not cold or wet enough last night to have done her any harm" (great coat and condition) Vet was out of area, condition deteriated rapidly from noon-2pm when the vet arrived most notably in the last 45 minutes when I was sitting next to her in her stall-Temp & Resp had been steadily increasing from 1-2, pulse appeared normal-Gums started out darkish pink-progressed to purple when the vet arrived-While I was sitting in her stall with her head and neck in my lap I started to feel her sweat-by the time the vet arrived 20 minutes later she was saturated-displaying mild colic symptoms-not violent at all-After examination Vet determined Pnemonia (brought on by heavey condition) with a mild colic-Immediatly put on broad spectrum antibiotics-oiled-Noticed odor from tube-Banimine-and oxygen (5 lpm via mask) for 30 minute segements every hour-no change in gum color with oxygen-by this time her gums were very purple 4:30 by the time the vet left-5:15 getting agitated and wants to roll-heavy Banimine less than two hours ago-Called vet-went to pick up stronger painkiller and seditive (until he could finish the emergency he was on)-Gone less than 30 minutes she had been being kept up and walking w/cooler while I was gone-she died 10 minutes before I got back

Tonight-27 year old POA Gelding, has been a bit of a chronic case-diareaha, hard keeper, ect-has been seen by the vet on several occasions-Teeth are abnormal (parrot mouth, waves ect.) has had blood pulled ect.. on several occasions-nothing notable-mild white bc elevation.
Started showing mild discomfort Friday evening (late) very mild-no rolling just looked unhappy and wanted to lay down-walked and Banamined-no change Sat or Sunday-food withheld-lots of walking and Banimine for mild pain-Seemed peppier-Slight odor from mouth noticed Saturday-Odor downright rank by this morning-Vet came out determined definate major problem-surgical case-Not an option at his age really-euthanized, Post mortam showed major gas in bowel and stomach dangerously distended-This horse had had nothing to eat for 72 hours-

Starting to worry-None of the other stock has shown any signs of distress-all much younger-Any ideas?

Note-No changes to any of the horses diets/lifestyle in the last 6-8 weeks prior

[austique]

I think you are just going through one of those runs of bad luck. All of the horses were advanced in age and often when its time to go they will show some seizing up or coordination loss due to weakness. My 20 yo mare showed similar problems a couple of days before she passed. If you are worried about a communicable disease, I would get some blood pulled off the last horse that died or have an autopsy performed, but given the ages listed I think its just a bad run of luck.

[DreamersPrincess]

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pa ... griculture

Here's a link to an animal poison control center. They have a (24/7) toll free number (888)426-4435 but might charge a $50 fee. They might be able to rule in/out any significant similarities pretty quickly for you.

I can't even begin to imagine what you're going through. I'd think I'd be devestated. I pray everyone else stays healthy and happy form here forward.

[xfactor fan]

Is there anything new growing in the pasture? Or something old that has gotten moldy/odd coating of something? Any new bugs that could have come in with the hay?
Sounds like it may be something the the older horses are eating and the younger horses are ok with.

It also might be just a run of bad luck like someowne else said.

[madelyn]

So sorry to hear of your troubles. And it is heartwarming to hear of such wonderful care for these elderly equines. What does your vet think? Are the deaths really related or just one of those random things where they were all elderly horses and the timing was just coincidence?

[Vindicated]

We did a post-mortam on the last one-serious digestive tract issues caused by old age ect.

Checked the pastures extensivly-nothing we can find

Vet thought there was some chance of something-hence the necropsy on the last

All of our other horses are in great health and look great (shaggy) but fat, glossy and happy

[Rushtawin]

White muscle disease? It's usually caused by a selenium deficiency.

But odds are your younger horses would have been affected if it were that. But it does sound like perhaps it's just those four were fairly old.... but white muscle disease's symptoms sound very similar and are independent of weather, etc.

It sounds like you're taking great care of your horses since they're living so long! A pony over 40? That's definately a testament to great care! Sorry to hear of your losses though

[skeenan]

Just a guess... read this link on EPM...

http://www.dclahdvm.com/articles/epm.htm

My neighbor had moved up here from FLA five years ago and lost one of her horses suddenly. I believe they found her collapsed and she just died. Luckily, the vet thought to test for it. Her/my Morgan went through the battery of treatment and he hasn't shown any symptoms (and luckily, it isn't contagious). I did a lot of reading on it...

The seizures, sweating and lack of coordination sounded familiar. Horses (as I understand) can be carriers for a long time before showing any symptoms, if at all. Perhaps the elderly horses were unable to fend it off...? From what I've read, 50% of all horses have been exposed to the organism.

Hope this might help... and I hope (if it isn't just bad luck) that you find the issue. I also thought perhaps something toxic (in the hay, or feed) could be something to look into, perhaps...

[Shammy Davis]

I'm very sorry about your losses. I agree with Austique, in this day and time, horses that reach the age that yours had are rare. From long experience, I know we often forget the psychological component of living. Horses are herd animals and if you have ever observed the reaction of pasture mates during the circumstances of another individual's death, you would realize that they are under extreme stress. The lost of a mate or pasture body to another horse is very stressful, both physically and emotionally. The horse has a memory second only to the elephant. At the age they were, it is very probable that conditions were just too much for them. I do have to aplaud you for maintaining them as you did. I'm so sorry for your losses.

[Discovery]

I remember reading an article about a nervous disorder that is extremely similar to EPM but it's caused by a poisonous plant usually native to Australia, but is also found in the States. In the article the lady described how over the course of a couple of months she lost about 6 horses (most in their 20's), all of which showed the same symptoms before they died. The symptoms that you described about your 4 horses sound the same as in the article. She also mentioned how each horse before they became ill had stiff back legs, and would sometimes lift them up to their stomach. I wish I could remember the name of the disorder but I have the worst memory, I cant even remember the name of the plant lol.
Were all the horses that died kept in the same pasture?

[timex]

discovery, i think i read the same article, but can't remember the details.... the article would have been in Equus, in the past 3 months or so.

[kezeli]

[quote="Rushtawin"]White muscle disease? It's usually caused by a selenium deficiency.

But odds are your younger horses would have been affected if it were that. But it does sound like perhaps it's just those four were fairly old.... but white muscle disease's symptoms sound very similar and are independent of weather, etc.

It sounds like you're taking great care of your horses since they're living so long! A pony over 40? That's definately a testament to great care! Sorry to hear of your losses though :([/quote]

The last I heard white muscle diease was also called "monday morning sickness" and is caused when an athleate works hard than ubruptly stops working. Where did you get white muscle disease??

[Saddlebred]

Hey, I think I've read that article, too. The jerking of the back legs upward is called stringhalt, and I believe that the plant may be cat dandelion, or something of that sort. If all four horses that died showed incoordination, especially of the hindlegs, then I would be worried and re-check the pasture for anything. Also, you may consider looking in the hay for blister beetles. Even when dead, blister beetles contain the highly-potent toxin cantharidin.
But, it very well could just be terrible luck. I'm so sorry for your loss!