Raise A Native Sire Line

[Bast]

It must be Raise a Native magic dust.

[DDT]

Stan

Of the 13 Belmont winners from the Mr. Prospector sire line since 1995 all have different sires and dams, only Thunder Gulch won the Belmont himself. Of all 17 winners since 1995 9 of them have the Northern Dancer sire line as broodmare sires. My question to you is if the Mr. Prospector/Raise a Native "Y" is so powerful, how come all of these sires has failed to produce another Belmont winner in this time span? And, again, we are talking about a race that is restricted by age, each crop of foals only has one shot at winning a classic. It has been and continues to be a great way to handicap the classics.

DDT

[Pan Zareta]

Those figures speak loud and clear in favor of this sire line over all others. The four others were Da Tara who had the Intentionally sire line, Rags to Riches who had the Bold Ruler or Nasrullah sire line, Sarava who had the Icecapade sire line, and Touch Gold who had the Northern Dancer sire line.

It boggles the mind that you regard Icecapade and Northern Dancer, who had the same sire and BMS, as two separate sire lines, yet you lump everything that's tail male to RAN under the heading of "same sireline" regardless of how far removed from him any particular sire happens to be. Exactly how do you determine at which individual a "sire line" begins? Why does it not begin with the most recent ancestor in tail male common to the greatest number of recent sires of Belmont winners? That would, of course, be Phalaris, 5th sire of RAN, 4th sire of NorD & Icecapade. How do those sires compare when you exclude Mr. P., who apparently did have an autosomal 'somthing special', from the equation?

[stancaris]

It boggles my mind that you cannot see that Icecapade does not carry the Northern Dancer sire line. Does Icecapade have Northern Dancer in tail male? No, therefore he does not carry the Northern Dancer sire line.

If a horse does not have Raise A Native in tail male, the horse does not carry the RAN sire line. He might carry the Native Dancer sire line without going thru Raise A Native. For ex. the only Derby winner to carry the Native Dancer sire line I believe was Kaui King, a son of Native Dancer.

If you want to lump groups further back in time, you could say that all horses carrying the Bold Ruler sire line or Nasrullah sire line or the RAN sire line or the Turn-To sire line or the Northern Dancer Sire line all carry the Phalaris sire line.

[stancaris]

I must correct my statement above What I meant to say was- The only Derby winner to carry the Native Dancer sire line without going thru Raise A Native was Kaui King, a son of Native Dancer.

[stancaris]

DDT: You said it yourself: its a great way to handicap the Classics. However you do not think the Y chromosome has anything to do with it. Can you offer another explanation as to why the RAN sire line has been so successful in the Triple Crown whereas the RAN broodmare sire line has been basically a poor angle to use in handicapping the Classic.

By the way the only horses ever to win the Belmont stakes while carrying the RAN broodmare sire line also carried the RAN sire line. They were Point Given and Ruler on Ice. So both of these also carried Raise A Native's Y chromosome.

[Bast]

It boggles the mind that you regard Icecapade and Northern Dancer, who had the same sire and BMS, as two separate sire lines,

It is stunning.

Maybe some virtual chocolate will settle my brain.

[Pan Zareta]

It boggles my mind that you cannot see that Icecapade does not carry the Northern Dancer sire line.

They had the same sire, same Y chromosome, so were exactly the same "sire line". Any meaningful genetic differences between Icecapade and Northern Dancer were in autosomal DNA and (maybe) mitochondrial DNA, neither of which is inherited in uniparental paternal fashion, i.e. has anything to do with "sire line".

Bast, do you have an emoticon banging its little head against a brick wall?

[ElPrado]

I've seen one somewhere. Let me go look at deviantArt.

[Bast]

It boggles my mind that you cannot see that Icecapade does not carry the Northern Dancer sire line.

They had the same sire, same Y chromosome, so were exactly the same "sire line". Any meaningful genetic differences between Icecapade and Northern Dancer were in autosomal DNA and (maybe) mitochondrial DNA, neither of which is inherited in uniparental paternal fashion, i.e. has anything to do with "sire line".

Bast, do you have an emoticon banging its little head against a brick wall?

I will look for a good one.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta: If someone asked you what sire line does Sarava carry you would say Sarava carries the Northern Dancer sire line. But Sarava has no trace of Northern Dancer in tail-male. How can a horse carry the Northern Dancer sire line if Northern Dancer is not found in that line.

I would classify Sarava as a member of the Nearctic sire line because his sire his Wild Again, a son of Icecapade who is a son of Nearctic.

Using your idea about the same Y chromosome there are no specific sire lines at all. Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Nasrullah, Turn To all belong to the same sire line (Phalaris) and all have the same Y chromosome.

[madelyn]

stancaris, you must be confused. Both Icecapade and Northern Dancer are sons of Nearctic. They are both out of mares by Raise a Native and so are in fact 3/4 brothers in blood. Nevertheless, they are both of the same sireline. Neither is from the Raise a Native sireline.

[DDT]

Stan

Sir Gallahad III was a leading broodmare sire for 10 consecutive years. He is the only stallion to sire a Triple Crown winner that sired a Triple Crown winner. He sired 3 individual Kentucky Derby winners, however, similar to Mr. Prospector, you can count on one hand the number of classic winners produced by his daughters. Science has proven that these two stallions have the same “Y” chromosome, and thus far, science has proven that there are no performance genes carried on the “Y”. Because Mr. Prospector’s classic winners in the Belmont all come from different sires, it might be due to the influence of the broodmares in question and not the “”Y”.

DDT

[Patuxet]

stan wrote: "The only Derby winner to carry the Native Dancer sire line without going thru Raise A Native was Kaui King, a son of Native Dancer." Dancer's Image also won the Derby before he became an asterisk.

madelyn wrote: "Both Icecapade and Northern Dancer are sons of Nearctic. They are both out of mares by Raise a Native and so are in fact 3/4 brothers in blood. Nevertheless, they are both of the same sireline. Neither is from the Raise a Native sireline."

Icecapade and Nothern Dancer are out of mares by Native Dancer, not Raise A Native.

[stancaris]

Madelyn

I will ask you the same question I asked Pan zareta which he didn't answer.

Does Belmont winner Sarava carry the Northern Dancer sire line?

The way I see it he doesn't carry the northern dancer sire line because he does not have Northern Dancer in tail male.

In doing research on Belmont winners I would never include Sarava as a member of the Northern Dancer sire line. Please explain your ideas on the above question.