Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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BJ
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Postby BJ » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:55 am

Louis Finochio wrote:When I researched the pedigrees of past champions and TC winners I didnt find any of them with 12-13 crosses of a single sire line


Are you meaning Triple Crown Winners or Triple Crown race winners, i.e., Kentucky Derby winner? If you meant TC winners, we haven't had one of those since 1978, so we can't really count on those statistics, UNLESS you are saying, because of Phalaris we will never have another TC champion. Is that what you are saying?

louis finochio
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reply from Ingrid Fermin

Postby louis finochio » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:55 pm

RE: Inbreeding and breakdowns for 2006
Date: 8/30/06 1:12:05 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




We have a new Equine Medical Director that will be taking over on September 23rd. I would suggest that you contact Dr. Arthur once he is on board and I think that he should be able to assist you .
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio

BJ
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Re: reply from Ingrid Fermin

Postby BJ » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:06 pm

louis finochio wrote:RE: Inbreeding and breakdowns for 2006
Date: 8/30/06 1:12:05 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




We have a new Equine Medical Director that will be taking over on September 23rd. I would suggest that you contact Dr. Arthur once he is on board and I think that he should be able to assist you .


Well, that's a lot of help for those who needed to see the Vet's list BEFORE and during Del Mar.

I'm just curious what the point of having rules is if no one enforces them. Kind of like the United Nations in the world, IMO :roll:

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Postby louis finochio » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:11 pm

BJ: I have never seen any winner of those TC races or TC or HOY with that many crosses of a single sire line.

When any stallion with 10-13 crosses of a single sire line is bred to mares that have 8-12 crosses of the same sire line the result will be a high % of unsoundness in the offspring.

I was talking with Eddie Delahousse and ED told me that many TB breeders in Ky. said that we our in too deep into this inbreeding with Phalaris and they dont have a clue how to get back to the pre-Phalaris days where TB were sounder and lasted longer.

That is a scary statement coming from those breeders in Ky.
Those without sin cast the first stone.

Louis Finochio

BJ
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Postby BJ » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:38 pm

louis finochio wrote:BJ: I have never seen any winner of those TC races or TC or HOY with that many crosses of a single sire line.

When any stallion with 10-13 crosses of a single sire line is bred to mares that have 8-12 crosses of the same sire line the result will be a high % of unsoundness in the offspring.

I was talking with Eddie Delahousse and ED told me that many TB breeders in Ky. said that we our in too deep into this inbreeding with Phalaris and they dont have a clue how to get back to the pre-Phalaris days where TB were sounder and lasted longer.

That is a scary statement coming from those breeders in Ky.


Louis,

I'm sure you know that Briarctic was 4 x 6 to Phalaris. He made 63 starts.
Cold Comfort was also 4x6 to Phalaris. She made 57 starts and made over $300K.

And then there was the horse that made 83 starts who was 5x5x5 to Phalaris.

A SUS ORDENES (USA) M, 1963 DP = 16-6-13-1-0 (36) DI = 3.80 CD = 1.03 - GSV = 74.27 - 83 Starts, 16 Wins, 11 Places, 11 Shows Career At 4: 3rd Ohio Matron H.

The above was found in just a couple of minutes, with thousands more horses to look at. So...don't you think that REAL "close inbreeding" (not inbreeding 8 or 9 generations back) would be a greater threat to soundness, if your Phalaris theory was solid?

I truly mean no disrespect, but I honestly think it is more the COMBINATION of multiple inbreedings, with today's racing environment that is the recipe for the breakdowns, NOT just the inbreeding. So, if we modified some of the training tactics and the racing schedules, I bet we'd see a lot fewer breakdowns with MORE INBREEDING, than we would see fewer breakdowns with less inbreeding and no modification of the racing environment.

I'd make that bet any day of the week!

Bill from WA
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Postby Bill from WA » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:42 pm

This may be partially related to the discussion.

http://vein.library.usyd.edu.au/links/E ... /reed.html
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.

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BJ
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Postby BJ » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:42 pm

Louis,

How about a study of stallions at stud that made under 12 starts, that have progeny race records available? That MIGHT isolate the issue a little better.

BJ
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Postby BJ » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:44 pm

Bill from WA wrote:This may be partially related to the discussion.

http://vein.library.usyd.edu.au/links/E ... /reed.html


Ah, yes...the Marlyland Shin Program. I am a proponent of that and modified versions. Because even 5 year old bones can shin buck when not gradually allowed to remodel.

Bill from WA
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Postby Bill from WA » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:51 pm

Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.



Langston Hughes

Sam
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Postby Sam » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:14 pm

louis finochio wrote:BJ: I have never seen any winner of those TC races or TC or HOY with that many crosses of a single sire line.

You must have missed where I posted Affirmed had 12 crosses to St. Simon, 28 if you included all the daughters of St. Simon. That's just the first 10 generations, there were actually several additional crosses further back.

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Postby Shammy Davis » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:30 pm

I see that the thread to "no where" is taking on a life of itself. If we didn't respond to Louis, the subject would die.

BJ
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Postby BJ » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:10 pm

Shammy Davis wrote:I see that the thread to "no where" is taking on a life of itself. If we didn't respond to Louis, the subject would die.


Hey Shammy :),

How are you?

Guess you never heard that "Life is a journey...not a destination" :lol: :wink:

Threads/debates like this are known, in some circles as "mental masturbation".

Now class...everyone take your brain out and play with it :!:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Sysonby
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Postby Sysonby » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:23 pm

Bill from WA wrote:Hi

Holy Bull is not Phalaris free. He has 6 lines to Phalaris in 9 generations. He is 5x5 to Questionaire, who in turn, is 5x3 to the great Domino and 5/6/6/x4 to Himyar. Questionaire has 21 lines to the poorly conformed Touchstone within 9 genertations. Holy Bull has 10 lines to the "markedly over-at-the-knees, Bay Ronald, within 9 generations. My personal view (for what it's worth) is that problems with soundness, or breakdowns, cannot be isolated to one individual animal, but is the result of myriad contributions which include, not only pedigree, but track surfaces, training regimens, and bad luck. (Say Florida Sandy, 15 lines to Phalaris within 9 generations, 98 starts). Remember, triple crown winners Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed are all from the Phalaris sireline.

Bill


I think that Louis only counts Phalaris if he's tail male. Otherwise, he might as well not exist and the stallion is "Phalaris free".

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Postby Bill from WA » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:35 pm

Phalaris is found 7s x 8d x 8d x 8d x 9d x 9d in the pedigree of Holy Bull.
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Postby louis finochio » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:56 pm

When I breakdown the sire lines I use only a 5 generation pedigree.

Briarctic has the following sire lines in his 5 generation pedigree.

Sundridge-----------1---cross

Phalaris--------------1---cross

Chaucer-------------2 crosses

Rabelais-------------1 cross

Spearmint----------1 cross

Orby-----------------1 cross

Cyllene--------------2 crosses

Ayrshire-------------1 cross

Prince Rose---------1 cross

Rock Sand----------2 crosses

Gainsborough------2 crosses

Swynford-----------1 cross

Cold Comfort to follow stay tuned.
Those without sin cast the first stone.

Louis Finochio