Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Tue May 01, 2012 7:25 pm

Here Louis.
You can look up the pedigrees yourself if you can figure out how to use the search button on the first page.
Camelot
Fencing
Parish Hall
Abtaal
French Fifteen
Mashoora
Top Offer
Born To Sea

Warning, that last one has some very famous relatives.
Last edited by ElPrado on Tue May 01, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Tue May 01, 2012 7:28 pm

Hey, look!
We're getting pretty close to page 900! Who'da thunk it!

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Whirlaway
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Postby Whirlaway » Tue May 01, 2012 8:27 pm

Hi Louis, hope you are well.

I was reading a post by a gentleman who was a pigeon fancier for over fifty years and I recalled you are also a pigeon fancier so I thought to ask your opinion about what that gentleman wrote about outcrossing and hybrid vigor.

He wrote that inbreeding and line breeding for long periods of time caused that strain to become weaker, what he called "inbreeding depression." He wrote that to prevent this depression, new blood must be introduced into the original strain and this new blood produced an outcross. It was his experience that when a proper outcross is produced, it was more robust and more vigorous when compared to the original strain - the outcross possessed "hybrid vigor." He wrote that it was his experience that when an outcross is bred back into the original strain, that mating produced an offspring that was as good as or greater than the outcross. He called this mating an F1 outcross.

What are your thoughts about what this fancier wrote about outcrossing, hybrid vigor and the F1 outcross?

~

Here is the rest of the story and how it relates to the Kentucky Derby. This fancier wrote that at the beginning of this year he was looking at the list of Kentucky Derby nominees and saw Gemologist. He took a look at his breeding and saw he was an F1 outcross, saw the horse won its first few races and from his pigeon breeding experience, believed Gemologist was “as good as or greater than the outcross.” That outcross is Tiznow. Mr. Fancier made a few bets on Gemologist in the first Derby futures simply based on his breeding and is now holding onto some pretty live tickets! What makes the story so believable is he posted Gemologist as his pick back in the first week of January. As a fancier, I am interested in your thoughts here Louis and thanks.
Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. - William O. Douglas
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It is the characteristic of the most stringent censorships, that they give credibility to the opinions they attack. - Voltaire

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Tue May 01, 2012 9:49 pm

Oh, look! I found some more!

Gatepost
Apollo
Power
Roman Soldier
Forest Row
David Livingston
Magic City
Frederick Engels
Mezmaar
Raphael Santi
St Barths
Noble Mission
Lilbourne Lad
Zip Top
Batak Chinta
Commissar
Crown Dependency
Gabrial
Requinto
Trumpet Major
Fulbright
Apostle
Rougemont
Coupe de Ville
Furner's Green
Choir
Zumbi
Chandlery
Tiger Cliff
Bannock
Letsgoroundagain
Signifer
Dabirsim
Entifaadha
Dragon Pulse
Talwar
Trending
Nawwaar
Eastern Sun
Ektihaam
Nabroor
Saigon
Lord of the Shadows
Sammindar
Lethal Force
Red Duke
North Star Baby
Poole Harbour
Silverheels
Wise Venture

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Tue May 01, 2012 9:53 pm

That was just the colts. Here are the 1000 Guineas as of now:


Maybe
Gamilati
Desert Gazelle
Fallen For You
La Colina
Angels Will Fall
Regal Realm
Discourse
Questing
Experience
Remember Alexan’
Best Terms
Russelliana
Fire Lily
Elbe
Shumoos
Teolane
Inetrobil
Samitar
Illaunglass
Falls Of Lora
Switcher
Ladyship
Hello Glory
Gifted Girl
My Propeller
Sajwah
Miss Work Of Art
Lily’s Angel
Princess Sinead
Tickled Pink
Lady Gorgeous
La Collina
Firdaws
Remember Alexander
Minidress

parlo
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Postby parlo » Wed May 02, 2012 12:53 am

@Bast: At least this I've learnt over the past 6 years. :wink:

Just for fuelling this never-ending merry-go-round and because I´m such a great admirer of Louis's unproven thesis:

@Louis: Here is the actual Ante-Post-Betting-Market on the Epsom Derby:

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/popup_ ... id=2839486

Please, have yourself!


Remember the article I posted several weeks ago on the Galileo-Danehill-Nick what pretty much is the “en vogue”- fashion-breeding done in Europe.


And here are Germany’s winners of 2 important Derby-Trials so far this season:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/amaron2

http://www.pedigreequery.com/black+arrow13

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Wed May 02, 2012 1:17 am

And the winners of 2 French classics over the last few years.
Tin Horse
Lope de Vega
Silver Frost
Falco
Astronomer Royal
Golden Lilac
Special Duty
Elusive Wave
Zarkava
Darjina
Tie Black
Divine Proportions

Have a nice day!

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Bast
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Postby Bast » Wed May 02, 2012 3:12 am

Whirlaway wrote:Hi Louis, hope you are well.

I was reading a post by a gentleman who was a pigeon fancier for over fifty years and I recalled you are also a pigeon fancier so I thought to ask your opinion about what that gentleman wrote about outcrossing and hybrid vigor.

He wrote that inbreeding and line breeding for long periods of time caused that strain to become weaker, what he called "inbreeding depression." He wrote that to prevent this depression, new blood must be introduced into the original strain and this new blood produced an outcross. It was his experience that when a proper outcross is produced, it was more robust and more vigorous when compared to the original strain - the outcross possessed "hybrid vigor." He wrote that it was his experience that when an outcross is bred back into the original strain, that mating produced an offspring that was as good as or greater than the outcross. He called this mating an F1 outcross.

What are your thoughts about what this fancier wrote about outcrossing, hybrid vigor and the F1 outcross?

~

Here is the rest of the story and how it relates to the Kentucky Derby. This fancier wrote that at the beginning of this year he was looking at the list of Kentucky Derby nominees and saw Gemologist. He took a look at his breeding and saw he was an F1 outcross, saw the horse won its first few races and from his pigeon breeding experience, believed Gemologist was “as good as or greater than the outcross.” That outcross is Tiznow. Mr. Fancier made a few bets on Gemologist in the first Derby futures simply based on his breeding and is now holding onto some pretty live tickets! What makes the story so believable is he posted Gemologist as his pick back in the first week of January. As a fancier, I am interested in your thoughts here Louis and thanks.


Stop, stare, and wonder:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/gemologist2
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
*****************************
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio

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Bast
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Postby Bast » Wed May 02, 2012 3:15 am

ElPrado wrote:What the Hell is Euro land? Is that a new country? He can't spell Europe? He can't open a link or do a search? Just how lazy is he?


In the Louisverse, it's called Euroland. You question a pedigree reader?

The only way the Acrobat Reader software will ever get on Louis's computer will be when someone downloads the software for him and installs it for him.
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!

*****************************

A horse gallops with his lungs

Perseveres with his heart

And wins with his character. --Tesio

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Wed May 02, 2012 4:00 am

That's about as much an F1 outcross as it is a strawberry shortcake.
Northern Dancer on both sides of the pedigree makes it an F1 outcross? Does he know what that means at all?
They both need to go back to having a birdbath with their pigeons. :shock:

louis finochio
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Postby louis finochio » Wed May 02, 2012 6:44 am

I totally agree, with the pigeon fancier. When the racing performance starts to regress, the fire has gone out of their eyes, their conformation becomes non-robust, those warning signs tell us it is time to find an outcross.

I always like the outcross, thru the mare or hen, as the successful male line should not be tampered with, when you bring in an unrelated male.
After the 1st cross is made, the offspring of the cross is mated back to the original family. Thats where those superior runners will surface.

Gemologist's outcross Tiznow is thru his sire, which will breed superior runners. Every breeder has his own formula to breed the Big Horse.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio

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Postby louis finochio » Wed May 02, 2012 7:15 am

Thanks for your post of Epsom Derby runners Parlo. Camelot has a balance of speed & stamina, one to watch.
Those without sin cast the first stone.

Louis Finochio

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pfrsue
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Postby pfrsue » Wed May 02, 2012 7:21 am

Whirlaway wrote:This fancier wrote that at the beginning of this year he was looking at the list of Kentucky Derby nominees and saw Gemologist ... He took a look at his breeding and saw he was an F1 outcross...


To the best of my knowledge, the terms F1 and F1 outcross are terms that Louis invented and are only in use on this forum. What pigeon/horse fancier wrote this? Would you please cite your source?

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Postby Shammy Davis » Wed May 02, 2012 7:42 am

Louis: As usual you are not thinking about what you are saying as it is related to your PH/FB/NFB thinking. "F1" as quoted is really "deep linebreeding" and has been a technique in use for hundreds of years, particularly in livestock. It is a successful agriculture technique.

The point is that you either believe in your theory or you don't. Your baseline is the stallion PHALARIS and because your theory is quantative and doesn't consider other verifiable factors or the true significance of the mare line, if you agree with the Whirlaway's "pigeon fancier" analysis, then you are contradicting everything you have said in this thread. If 90% of all TB pedigees contain PH, and a vast majority of those pedigrees are disproportionately PH and become FB, then it is likely that a deep linebreeding beyond the 4th or 5th generation, in the majority of cases using your theory, would make an NFB pedigree a FB pedigree. Thus, making an "unsound" racehorse from that mating. NFB pedigrees exists because of a lack of prepotency and athleticism in their lines. Simply, NFB lines were and continue to be unproductive and weak in the breeding shed. Who in their right mind would want to breed a good racehorse to a non-productive line?

It is simple math when it comes to your thinking. That's because you have made it that way. Be careful with what you agree with. Remember, one pigeon fancier's "racer" might be another pigeon fancier's "squab."

Go back an look over your book. If you were so aware of this PH/FB/NFB why didn't you relate that information then? You consistently use examples from that period in this thread making it appear that your concept of PH was available for print.

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BenB
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Postby BenB » Wed May 02, 2012 8:36 am

An F1 cross is used when, 2 different breeds are mixed.

Example, a dutch native horse with an TB result a riding horse.

The F1 termology is not used by mixing several bloodlines within one breed.