General question

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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vineyridge
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General question

Postby vineyridge » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:39 am

My question came up in the context of Double Jay, who was a wonderful sire.

His aei is 2.18, he had 1669 foals, 1313 starters, and 1025 winners. Of those 1025 winners, 112 (7%) were Blacktype Winners. Get won over 49 and a quarter million $, which is huge for a 1944 sire.

He now seems to be virtually extinct as a sire line. Why would that have happened?

Is it possible that a super sire could be a dud as a grandsire? Has the mare base changed that much? (Well, yes, I know it has since the Teddy's got farther and farther back).

Any thoughts on this? It has happened with other Balladiers also, and even the Man O'Wars are getting thin on the ground.

Is linebreeding through mares the answer to bringing back these genetics which were so superior in the past?

Or, and I cring to suggest this, were the "American" TBs somehow inferior to the imported ones and are deservedly dead?
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Matchemforever
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Postby Matchemforever » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:08 am

Very, un-thought-out reply to a complex question, several thoughts-

Fashion. Best, newest thing from Europe.

Even Man O' War was from a cross from an import, Rock Sand.

The horses that came over from Europe seemed to be, at least after MOW's time, stallions. That would insure a lot of influence fast, whether warranted or not.

Everything in America was an import at one time or another, anyway, so the idea of importing and it being the newest thing on the block and popular because of that, was already ingrained.

The eventual change to races more sprint oriented? Caveat here, I think anything a mile and under should really be considered a sprint. :shock:

Domino proves you could get sprinting from blood already "American" by definition, but I don't know if anyone was paying attention to that at the time.

Even the imports were crossed on those "American-bred" mares. The Double Jay's and Man O' War's seemed to provide something on the mare side that I think, got lost in it's importance over the imported stallions.

I don't know about Double Jay but you have the case of MOW who, IMHO, never had a decent chance at stud to get really good stallion sons because of the ego and incompetence of his owner, Sam Riddle. What he did with that handicap is amazing and it is a crime to the American thoroughbred industry that he was kept primarily as a private stallion. I know they were very cautious because of temperment but you'd think someone would have figured out to get more West Australian and Hampton blood crossed with MOW, maybe Rock Sand again but further back, and pick up Hastings through another source than Fair Play and again, further back. War Relic seemed to succeed but IMHO, he was a linebred Rock Sand and Fairy Gold with only one cross of Fair Play/Hastings and his reputation for his temper probably lies with Rock Sand although the linebreeding is no doubt what helped him carry on.

It was easier to import stallions than mares then cross those stallions on the American mare base. Belmont imported a few mares but generally, I think the prevalence was the other way around and "fashion" prevailed.

Since you got me looking at the mare lines more closely, I am amazed again and again that you will find the Fair Play/MOW line in there in the dam line in a lot of even today's runners.

If I had the money, yes, I think bringing back the Fair Plays through the mares is about the only way to go and I would purposely try to limit the War Relic's in there, as I don't consider him the best example of that line, especially where his neck set is concerned. And how did his get end up as sprinters? Was that an example of staying x staying = sprinters?

Bill from WA
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Postby Bill from WA » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:11 pm

Hi

I would respectfully like to post a correction regarding the stud record of Double Jay. Double Jay stood at Claiborne Farm for 22 seasons and sired 453 named foals, with 45 stakes winners (10%). His AEI was 2.68. He was the leading broodmare sire in America in 1971, 1975, 1977, and 1981.

Bill
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Postby Matchemforever » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:37 pm

Rachel Alexandra,

Fifth dam, Native Go Go, out of Ro Dear out of Ellen's Best, who was sired by War Relic. (Yeah, I know what I've said about him) But get this, Ellen's Best third dam, The Sward, was out of Speed Boat, a full sister to War Relic. At that point in time, that line was intensified. I haven't looked much more and there is more Fair Play/MOW to be found, as in many pedigrees, but Medaglia D'Oro's dam sire line comes down from Sword Dancer and his dam line has Speed Boat also.

Cappucino Bay, dam of Medaglia D'Oro, carries the mare Sunday Evening, by Eight Thirty, twice in the dam line, with more Fairy Gold/MOW/Rock Sand going on there.

Quite a ways back but catches my attention when I manage to notice it. :roll:

vineyridge
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Postby vineyridge » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:33 pm

Bill, you're right.

I was looking up one of his get on the free Equineline 5x pedigrees, and somehow I misread the nicking information that is provided--probably used the other male instead of Double Jay.

I have no idea now what horse I was looking up, so I also have no idea whose stats I quoted.
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vineyridge
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Postby vineyridge » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:58 pm

One of the things that I personally find extremely interesting are the effects on European TBs from the mass exodus of the big money American breeders after the betting bans pre WWI. When the relatively isolated American lines of Hamburg and Lexington were infused into the European TB, good things happened to them.

Sibola is the third dam of Nearco, and she is American bred and exported. Her dam lines are pure USA for generations.

Americus was the sire of Americus Girl, dam of Lady Josephine.

And then you have all of the American horses who went to France and produced, for example, Durbar who is FF A4 and is Tourbillon's damsire; Frizette, who is a daughter of Hamburg and was bred often to Durbar and was a great producer; and quite a few others who went to Europe at that time.

Having the ability to outcross to truly unrelated bloodlines really did produce better breeders. That's why South America is so important as one of the last places on Earth for finding true outcross blood.

Both War Relic and Speedboat were already intensely inbred to Rock Sand and Fairy Gold. But each also has a good dose of the great USA lines of Domino and Lexington and Reel.
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Matchemforever
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Postby Matchemforever » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:52 am

For kicks and giggles and not much else :roll: :


JUST a listing of sire line MOW/Fair Play stallions found on the Thoroughbred Times site. The one that jumps out, as having quite a bit of those sires, considering how far back they are getting, is Bright Launch.

Honor and Glory has an interesting mare in his dam line, one of the few that looks to have the pedigree you’d like to see MOW crossed with, a daughter of Teddy and Plucky Liege.

Otherwise, most of the horses have similar sire lines and that would be, to a large extent, pretty much it for the MOW/Fair Play line in the pedigree- in terms of finding stallions to cross on the mare lines in the hypothetical Vinery mentioned. Request for Parole comes down from In Reality differently from the rest, but it’s still the same sire line.

I have not considered anything else other than pedigree. I wouldn’t know if the sire threw unsound or conformation-challenged horses. Not about getting winners per se, either, just bringing back a line by trying to pick horses with more of that blood closer up.

(ND- either Native Dancer or Northern Dancer)


http://www.pedigreequery.com/bright+launch

Bright Launch, only one RAN cross in 5 generations.
Dam line plus to me, as War Tide is sire line War Admiral plus dam line Fair Play.
Foggy Note, dam of Relaunch, brings through her dam line, Spy Song, who has 2 crosses of Hastings and on the bottom, more MOW. Paris Breeze, dam line of Well Deocrated, brings in another cross of Fair Play on the bottom there.


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=7244715

Elite Squadron, only one RAN in 5.
Busanda in the dam line but not as much or as close (relatively speaking) up MOW/Fair Play lines in his pedigree.


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=1241101

Bertrando, one Native Dancer cross in 5.
Skywalker sire, 2xWar Relic and 3xDiscovery in 5- horse seems more a cross of the Discovery line of Fair Play than any other I see.


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=1393514

Honor and Glory, one cross Norther Dancer/5.
Dam line through Hostility by MOW, and out of the Teddy/Plucky Liege mare Marguerite De Valois (!)


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=4654131

Officer, 2x Native Dancer


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=4463297

Put It Back, 1 Northern Dancer in 5x.
Mostly, just the sire line here.


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=4635094

Request for Parole, 1 ND in 5.
A different In Reality line sire line, that’s about it.



http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=6489610

The Daddy, 1ND and 1 ND
Sire line Valid Expectations, mostly just sire line In Reality.


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=1403432

Valid Expectations, no ND in 5x

Worksoplad
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Postby Worksoplad » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:27 pm

You should check out Behrens in California. He is 4x5 Double Jay and 3x5 Ribot.
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vineyridge
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Postby vineyridge » Fri May 15, 2009 7:20 am

Yet another thought on this.

Do race breeders think in generational terms? That is to say, making one breeding for strengthening the pedigree of the following generation. You'd be wasting a performance generation for the genetics, but the bloodlines would be "saved".

I know sporthorse breeders do this regularly. Here's the kind of thing that I'm thinking about from sporthorse land.

There is a really great jumping line from the TB mare Bonne Cause. I've managed to find some tail female daughters out in the world of racehorses. If I weren't so old and so poor, what I would do is buy one of those race mares and breed her to a stallion who is highly inbred to Bonne Cause/Bonne Nuit (her son). Then I would hope for a filly and outcross that filly to a superior jumping stallion.
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