Outcross, Hybrid Vigor and the Derby: A question for Louis
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, Lucy
-
louis finochio
- Darley line
- Posts: 9181
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am
- Location: Alhambra-Calif.
- Contact:
-
Patuxet
- Grade III Winner
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
- Location: New England & Florida
What Tappiano refers to as "vigor" Tesio called "nervous energy" about which he had some decidedly odd notions, especially in regard to artificial insemination.
Tesio maintained that horses have a finite amount of "nervous energy" and if depleted it has a decided effect on the horse's ability to reproduce itself. The more successful the horse, the more "nervous energy" it has expended, leaving such a stallion or broodmare with nothing to pass on to it's offspring.
He does suggest that over a period of time the reservoir of "nervous energy" in a horse can be restored.
As far as I know there is no genetic component to account for "nervous energy".
Tesio maintained that horses have a finite amount of "nervous energy" and if depleted it has a decided effect on the horse's ability to reproduce itself. The more successful the horse, the more "nervous energy" it has expended, leaving such a stallion or broodmare with nothing to pass on to it's offspring.
He does suggest that over a period of time the reservoir of "nervous energy" in a horse can be restored.
As far as I know there is no genetic component to account for "nervous energy".
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
-
louis finochio
- Darley line
- Posts: 9181
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am
- Location: Alhambra-Calif.
- Contact:
You cant build on nervous energy or restore it thru 27 crosses of Ph. stallions & 14 crosses of Ph. mares, as we find in those type 1 FB. Those types of matings are cruel to unsoundness. When you have a balance of NP & Ph. sire lines, you will breed prolific numbers of sound tbs with tons of nervous energy.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Patuxet wrote:What Tappiano refers to as "vigor" Tesio called "nervous energy" about which he had some decidedly odd notions, especially in regard to artificial insemination.
Tesio maintained that horses have a finite amount of "nervous energy" and if depleted it has a decided effect on the horse's ability to reproduce itself. The more successful the horse, the more "nervous energy" it has expended, leaving such a stallion or broodmare with nothing to pass on to it's offspring.
He does suggest that over a period of time the reservoir of "nervous energy" in a horse can be restored.
As far as I know there is no genetic component to account for "nervous energy".
Yes he did say that and also said that is one reason why mares should be retired at three, but I am talking specifically about his study as it pertained to the Epsom Derby and why there are not four or five direct descendants who win it.
I fully agree with the nervous energy theory as it pertains to why speed based horses can run long, but from a genetic perspective, I can only envision bad things happening to cells that reproduce with too much interference
louis finochio wrote:You cant build on nervous energy or restore it thru 27 crosses of Ph. stallions & 14 crosses of Ph. mares, as we find in those type 1 FB. Those types of matings are cruel to unsoundness. When you have a balance of NP & Ph. sire lines, you will breed prolific numbers of sound tbs with tons of nervous energy.
There is no such thing as "nervous energy". You cannot tell us what it is on the level of genes because there is no such thing.
Why would crossing two different lines to Whalebone be so wonderful?
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
*****************************
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
*****************************
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
-
Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
- Posts: 4451
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
Louis has long used the term "hybrid vigor" incorrectly. Although the TB is a hybrid, the breeding has been closed for so long that it is extremely unlikely that it is of consequence currently.
Here is some thoughts on hybrid vigor as it concerns canines. The points that are made are valid to this discussion.
http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/hybridvigor.pdf
It makes sense that Louis would use terms like hybrid vigor and soundness to promote his thinking. They are very vague terms by definition and it is extremely easy to influence the thinking of the uninformed.
When Louis first started this thread and began throwing these terms around, that was the point that I began to protest.
Here is some thoughts on hybrid vigor as it concerns canines. The points that are made are valid to this discussion.
http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/hybridvigor.pdf
It makes sense that Louis would use terms like hybrid vigor and soundness to promote his thinking. They are very vague terms by definition and it is extremely easy to influence the thinking of the uninformed.
When Louis first started this thread and began throwing these terms around, that was the point that I began to protest.
-
xfactor fan
- Breeder's Cup Winner
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Anyone else think it is the height of arrogance to presume to know what Tesio would think or do today? The poor fellow is dead and can't defend himself.
Tesio was a product of his times, and was trying to fit his observations into scientific framework of his day. He was born in 1869--would have been a 30 at the turn of the century. Mendel and his peas were a brand new idea.
Tesio observed that his best racehorses for the most part were not his best breeders. Nearco and Ribot not withstanding. His observed that his best breeders were close siblings of his best racers. This lead to his conclusion that racing drained the "life force" of his racers.
Another interpretation of the same data might be that the "classic horse" is a balance of speed and distance. A intermediate form, that has both speed genes and distance genes. Intermediate forms DO NOT breed true. Not in horses, cows, turnips or pigeons.
Which would fit Tesio's observation that his best racers (intermediate forms) were not his best breeders.
The easiest way to create intermediate forms is to start with two pure strains--in TB's, speed and stamina. Do the appropriate cross and the chances are good that the result will be an intermediate form.
Sibling of superior racers might have been closer to the "pure type" either speed, or stamina. Which in turn would have allowed the selection of mates of the opposite type. The desired result would be breeding speed to stamina to create more intermediate types.
This would also fit into Tesio's observations, and provides a explanation that has nothing to do with "life force" or "nervous energy".
Tesio was brilliant, an astute observer of his horse, and whatever formula he used, created horses that are still making an impact on the breed today.
The modern Thoroughbred is not a hybrid. Mules are hybrids. Zorses, zoneys, zbrass's, zdonkey's and hinneys are equine hybrids. No fertile cross of any horse breed with any other horse breed is a hybrid.
Tesio was a product of his times, and was trying to fit his observations into scientific framework of his day. He was born in 1869--would have been a 30 at the turn of the century. Mendel and his peas were a brand new idea.
Tesio observed that his best racehorses for the most part were not his best breeders. Nearco and Ribot not withstanding. His observed that his best breeders were close siblings of his best racers. This lead to his conclusion that racing drained the "life force" of his racers.
Another interpretation of the same data might be that the "classic horse" is a balance of speed and distance. A intermediate form, that has both speed genes and distance genes. Intermediate forms DO NOT breed true. Not in horses, cows, turnips or pigeons.
Which would fit Tesio's observation that his best racers (intermediate forms) were not his best breeders.
The easiest way to create intermediate forms is to start with two pure strains--in TB's, speed and stamina. Do the appropriate cross and the chances are good that the result will be an intermediate form.
Sibling of superior racers might have been closer to the "pure type" either speed, or stamina. Which in turn would have allowed the selection of mates of the opposite type. The desired result would be breeding speed to stamina to create more intermediate types.
This would also fit into Tesio's observations, and provides a explanation that has nothing to do with "life force" or "nervous energy".
Tesio was brilliant, an astute observer of his horse, and whatever formula he used, created horses that are still making an impact on the breed today.
The modern Thoroughbred is not a hybrid. Mules are hybrids. Zorses, zoneys, zbrass's, zdonkey's and hinneys are equine hybrids. No fertile cross of any horse breed with any other horse breed is a hybrid.
-
Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
- Posts: 4451
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
Xfactor
enjoyed your post and agree that mules, not warmblood/coldblood crosses are hybrids
However, we, or at least the industry, does produce "hybrid" corn not by crossing it with millet, or perhaps a more related grain, but by inbreeding selective strains of corn and then doing F1 and F2 outcrosses.
Maybe there is some validity to the notion that you get something similar to the seed corn industry calls "hybrid-vigor" when you out-cross two strains of unrelated inbred horses. Might be interesting to be able to do an F2 out-cross with TBs and observe the result.
This probably has little to do with TBs but many years ago we purchased a "Rag Apple" bull out of Canada who produced superior milk producers out of everything he covered.. he was so good we bred him back to his own daughters who were superior to their grandmothers but not their mothers. However, these in-bred daughter/grand daughters produced better than them selves when out-crossed to our next unrelated bull.
Need to point out the "next unrelated bull" was not inbred so his offspring were nothing even close to an F2 cross.
Again, I am talking about milk production not how fast these cows could run.
griff
enjoyed your post and agree that mules, not warmblood/coldblood crosses are hybrids
However, we, or at least the industry, does produce "hybrid" corn not by crossing it with millet, or perhaps a more related grain, but by inbreeding selective strains of corn and then doing F1 and F2 outcrosses.
Maybe there is some validity to the notion that you get something similar to the seed corn industry calls "hybrid-vigor" when you out-cross two strains of unrelated inbred horses. Might be interesting to be able to do an F2 out-cross with TBs and observe the result.
This probably has little to do with TBs but many years ago we purchased a "Rag Apple" bull out of Canada who produced superior milk producers out of everything he covered.. he was so good we bred him back to his own daughters who were superior to their grandmothers but not their mothers. However, these in-bred daughter/grand daughters produced better than them selves when out-crossed to our next unrelated bull.
Need to point out the "next unrelated bull" was not inbred so his offspring were nothing even close to an F2 cross.
Again, I am talking about milk production not how fast these cows could run.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
F1 crosses excist only and is about the same as hybrid breeding, by crossing two different breeds, and not 2 of a kind. As the TB breed is closed an F1 mating or an hybrid cannot take place.
When arab stallions were mated with english native horses that were F1 matings but this happens to be a long time ago.
When arab stallions were mated with english native horses that were F1 matings but this happens to be a long time ago.
It does not matter whether is was an arab-shire cross.
Or an arab-shetland, or any else, as long as there were/are two different breeds involved.
A friend got an F1 product out an FB mare-frysian colt. (accidently a yearling frysian)
I have posted an reply with links in the last or fore last page in the inbreeding
thread, about this subject.
Or an arab-shetland, or any else, as long as there were/are two different breeds involved.
A friend got an F1 product out an FB mare-frysian colt. (accidently a yearling frysian)
I have posted an reply with links in the last or fore last page in the inbreeding
thread, about this subject.
-
xfactor fan
- Breeder's Cup Winner
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
F1, F2 refer to First Generation , Second Generation. This nomenclature can be applied to anything. Children produced by any couple can be considred F1. Grandchildren can be considered F2. When applied to cross breeding horses, corn or cows this is a way of labeling which generation the cross took place.
'Hybrid" plants by common usage are plants that need to be created by each generation by the seed company. Not saved by the farmer and planted from his own field. Hybrid seeds don't breed true. This is also the situation with "hybrid" horses using this common usage.
The "hybrid" horse no matter how vigrous is not going to breed true.
'Hybrid" plants by common usage are plants that need to be created by each generation by the seed company. Not saved by the farmer and planted from his own field. Hybrid seeds don't breed true. This is also the situation with "hybrid" horses using this common usage.
The "hybrid" horse no matter how vigrous is not going to breed true.