Raise A Native Sire Line

[Pan Zareta]

Using your idea about the same Y chromosome there are no specific sire lines at all.

As stated before, the utter lack of diversity on the domestic horse Y chromosome is a matter of FACT, not opinion. Only one Y haplotype survived the domestication process (ref. Lippold et al., 2011, Discovery of lost diversity of paternal horse lineages using ancient DNA). All domestic horses trace in 'tail male' to a single very recent (in evolutionary terms) founder. There simply hasn't been enough time for sustainable mutations to establish themselves in the population.

"Sire line", in the context of the domestic horse, is a meaningless abstraction. There are other explanations for what you naively attribute to "sire line" superiority.

[Bast]

Madelyn

I will ask you the same question I asked Pan zareta which he didn't answer.

Does Belmont winner Sarava carry the Northern Dancer sire line?

The way I see it he doesn't carry the northern dancer sire line because he does not have Northern Dancer in tail male.

In doing research on Belmont winners I would never include Sarava as a member of the Northern Dancer sire line. Please explain your ideas on the above question.

Northern Dancer had full brothers who absolutely carried the same y-chromosome, the same mitochondrial DNA, and some share of the same DNA.

But they did not run like Northern Dancer and they did not share Northern Dancer's success as a sire, either. The y-chromosome was the same, the mtDNA was the same, but the RESULT was not the same. If the y-chromosome is golden, these brothers should have replicated Northern Dancer's stallion success, yes?

Northern Native (1966)
Northern Ave (1968)
Translatlantic (1972)

But they did not.

Raise a Native had no full brothers, but Mr Prospector had 4:

Search for Gold (1969)
Kentucky Gold (1973)
Red Ryder (1976)
Vaal Reef (1984)

None of them replicated Mr Prospector as a race horse (two were unraced) and none approached him as a stallion, despite carrying the very same y-chromosome.

[vineyridge]

It's Padua, that's what it is. Tail female line that produced some superlative sires--Relic, RAN, and Blue Larkspur for starters. I have a small hypothesis that putting Padua back into RAN horses is a GOOD thing.

So how many of the RAN line classics winners have lines back to Padua through either her male or female descendants? Of course, it's probable that every elite TB is going to have Blue Larkspur somewhere, but I'm personally a huge Padua fan.

[stancaris]

Does the Belmont winner Sarava carry the Northern dancer sideline? I know it must be assumed here that there is such a thing as a sire line

[DDT]

Stan

I think the correct answer is no he does not, he descends from Nearctic, the sire of Northern Dancer. It may be more correct to refer to it as he is from the same sire line that is responsible for Northern Dancer, Icecapade, Explodent and others.

DDT

[Bast]

Does the Belmont winner Sarava carry the Northern dancer sideline? I know it must be assumed here that there is such a thing as a sire line

I honestly do not know what you mean by "sideline". Could you define it?

[madelyn]

Sarava is FROM the same sire line as Northern Dancer, who is by Nearctic. Sarava is by Wild Again, who is by Icecapade, who is by Nearctic. It is the SAME sireline.

[ElPrado]

It's a different line of work. Maybe the mares from the other sidelines were stockbrokers.

[stancaris]

Madelyn: My question to you was as follows: Is Sarava a member of the Northern Dancer sire line? The answer to this question is NO. He cannot be a member of the Northern Dancer sire line because he does not have Northern Dancer in tail- male. One can say that Sarava's sire line traces back to the same sire that Northern Dancer had (Nearctic), but that is not the same as saying Sarava is a member of the Northern Dancer sire line.

Sarava descends in tail male from Nearctic who begot a son, Icecapade who begot a son, Wild Again who begot Sarava. Sarava does not have Northern Dancer in tail male so he cannot be considered a member of the Northern Dancer sire line. Sarava is a member of the Nearctic sire line.

[Bast]

It's a different line of work. Maybe the mares from the other sidelines were stockbrokers.

(Mental image of mares in pinstripe business suits.)

[Bast]

Northern Dancer had full brothers who absolutely carried the same y-chromosome, the same mitochondrial DNA, and some share of the same DNA.

But they did not run like Northern Dancer and they did not share Northern Dancer's success as a sire, either. The y-chromosome was the same, the mtDNA was the same, but the RESULT was not the same. If the y-chromosome is golden, these brothers should have replicated Northern Dancer's stallion success, yes?

Northern Native (1966)
Northern Ave (1968)
Translatlantic (1972)

But they did not.

Raise a Native had no full brothers, but Mr Prospector had 4:

Search for Gold (1969)
Kentucky Gold (1973)
Red Ryder (1976)
Vaal Reef (1984)

None of them replicated Mr Prospector as a race horse (two were unraced) and none approached him as a stallion, despite carrying the very same y-chromosome.

Stancaris,
Are you going to deal with this matter, or pretend it was never raised?

[stancaris]

The data you posted in your above post is irrelevant to the problem I posed. The problem I posed is as follows: The RAN sire line has been superior in all three Triple Crown races for over 25 years. The data is strong in regards to impact values for all three legs of the crown. By comparison, the RAN broodmare sire line has been particularly poor in all three legs of the crown and the impact values are poor with regard to this angle. The question I proposed was how does one explain the big difference. Why is the RAN sire line so superior to all other lines and even much better than the Northern Dancer sire line in all three legs of the Triple Crown. You keep harping on the Y chromosome being the same. I accept that and that is a known fact. My question is: How can we come up with an explanation of why the RAN sire line is so superior in all three legs of the Triple Crown.

I offered my own hypothesis as follows: Perhaps the Y chromosome produces products that allow autosomal genes to manifest themselves to develop a colt's strength, speed etc. The Y chromosome is identical in all horses but maybe RAN genes on other chromosomes are crucial to the success of the RAN sire line. Maybe these genes only work via imprinting etc.

If you don't like my hypothesis above, perhaps you can tell us why you think the RAN sire line is superior in all three legs of the Triple Crown.

There is no denying the superiority of the RAN sire line in the Triple Crown and the Y chromosome is the same in all horses so the Y alone cannot make the difference. If the superiority comes from autosomal genes working without the Y chromosome effects then one would certainly expect a much better representation of winners from those starters who had the RAN broodmare sire line.

By the way your reference to full brothers of Northern Dancer carrying the same Y chromosome, the same mt-DNA and sharing some of the same DNA should also take into account that Full Brothers to Northern Dancer only inherit on the average 50% of Northern Dancer's genes. Full Brothers are not identical twins.

[Bast]

The data you posted in your above post is irrelevant to the problem I posed. The problem I posed is as follows: The RAN sire line has been superior in all three Triple Crown races for over 25 years. The data is strong in regards to impact values for all three legs of the crown. By comparison, the RAN broodmare sire line has been particularly poor in all three legs of the crown and the impact values are poor with regard to this angle. The question I proposed was how does one explain the big difference. Why is the RAN sire line so superior to all other lines and even much better than the Northern Dancer sire line in all three legs of the Triple Crown. You keep harping on the Y chromosome being the same. I accept that and that is a known fact. My question is: How can we come up with an explanation of why the RAN sire line is so superior in all three legs of the Triple Crown.

I offered my own hypothesis as follows: Perhaps the Y chromosome produces products that allow autosomal genes to manifest themselves to develop a colt's strength, speed etc. The Y chromosome is identical in all horses but maybe RAN genes on other chromosomes are crucial to the success of the RAN sire line. Maybe these genes only work via imprinting etc.

This is not the same thing as proposing the Raise a Native y-chromosome is something special and is the source of superiority.

What do you mean by "imprinting"?

There is no denying the superiority of the RAN sire line in the Triple Crown and the Y chromosome is the same in all horses so the Y alone cannot make the difference. If the superiority comes from autosomal genes working without the Y chromosome effects then one would certainly expect a much better representation of winners from those starters who had the RAN broodmare sire line.

So, you're back to The Special Y-Chromosome, which affects something.

By the way your reference to full brothers of Northern Dancer carrying the same Y chromosome, the same mt-DNA and sharing some of the same DNA should also take into account that Full Brothers to Northern Dancer only inherit on the average 50% of Northern Dancer's genes. Full Brothers are not identical twins.

I never claimed they were identical--in fact, the whole point of listing them was that they were not.

[stancaris]

Bast: I honestly tried to offer an explanation based on the fact that all horses have the same Y chromosome. You twisted it to mean something else. Why don't you offer some explanation as to why the RAN sire line has been superior in all three Triple Crown races?

This thread is now becoming a waste of time. The two most dominant lines in today's thoroughbred are the Northern Dancer and Raise A Native sire lines. The Raise A Native sire line has outperformed the Northern Dancer sire line in all three legs of the Triple Crown. All horses from these above sire lines carry the same Y chromosome. There must be some other explanation as to why the RAN sire line is superior in these events and not just slightly superior but much more potent in generating winners. I offered a hypothesis. Why don't you offer an explanation.

Obviously one must look at autosomes as a means of explaining the above differences.

[xfactor fan]

stancaris,

You seem to be a careful researcher, and you very well may be on to something. Imprinting was mention several pages back. And not followed up on.

You may be seeing the effect of an autosomal gene (s) that are most effective when passed down via the male line. This would in effect look like they were actually on the Y chromosome. Or something that is dependent on high levels of testosterone. Both would appear to be controlled by the Y, and passed down via the sireline.

Maybe this should be called Faux Y?

As for the difference between Northern Dancer and Raise a Native, it might be that Northern Dancer carried the C or speed gene. Which would create early maturing horses that would do better at shorter distances. While Raise a Native was more likely to be T/T, which has a advantage for distance.