I've just finished reading "Gold Rush" about Mr. Prospector and have a question.
The number of the named get discussed in the book whose racing careers were ended with injury or who died later of laminitis and/or colic or just died young seems to me to be extremely high. I know he had a lot of foals, so I would like to ask those of you who have read (or written) the book and know the TB industry if Mr. P's numbers are unusually high for dying young or having to stop racing because of injury.
Soundness question
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vineyridge
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Soundness question
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louis finochio
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I have been told by trainers that Mr. P. passed on his unsoundness problems to a high % of his progeny. When you inbred to his dam Gold Digger, his sire RAN, & Mr. P. you are inviting unsoundness.
When Mr. P. was bred to those BMS by Olden Times, the progeny started 194 starts, In Reality 42 starts, Tentam 18 starts, Olden Times 36 starts, all those BMS descend from the sire line of Fair Play.
When Mr. P. was bred to those BMS by Olden Times, the progeny started 194 starts, In Reality 42 starts, Tentam 18 starts, Olden Times 36 starts, all those BMS descend from the sire line of Fair Play.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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As usual, Louis only brings out selected examples, here are just 5 that have inbreeding to Mr. Prospector including Horse of the Year for 2011 and the recent Kentucky Derby winner.
Havre de Grace, 3X5 Mr. Prospector, 4X5 Northern Dancer
Ruler on Ice, 3X5 Mr. Prospector, 4X4 Raise a Native, 5X5 Northern Dancer, 5X5 Bold Ruler
My Miss Aurelia, 2X4 Mr. Prospector, 3X5X5 Raise a Native
Hansen, 4X5 Mr. Prospector, 4X5 Raise a Native, 5X5 Northern Dancer, 5X5 Secretariat
I’ll Have Another, 4X4 Mr. Prospector, 4X4 Danzig, 5X5X5 Northern Dancer.
Inbreeding to Mr. Prospector does not always mean the horse is doomed.
DDT
Havre de Grace, 3X5 Mr. Prospector, 4X5 Northern Dancer
Ruler on Ice, 3X5 Mr. Prospector, 4X4 Raise a Native, 5X5 Northern Dancer, 5X5 Bold Ruler
My Miss Aurelia, 2X4 Mr. Prospector, 3X5X5 Raise a Native
Hansen, 4X5 Mr. Prospector, 4X5 Raise a Native, 5X5 Northern Dancer, 5X5 Secretariat
I’ll Have Another, 4X4 Mr. Prospector, 4X4 Danzig, 5X5X5 Northern Dancer.
Inbreeding to Mr. Prospector does not always mean the horse is doomed.
DDT
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vineyridge
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vineyridge
The national average for starters versus foals for stallions is about 67-70%, with the leading sires having a little higher average. That indicates that at least 33-30 out of every 100 foals do not make it to the races. I do not know what Mr. Prospector's averages were, but it seems to be in line with the national average.
DDT
The national average for starters versus foals for stallions is about 67-70%, with the leading sires having a little higher average. That indicates that at least 33-30 out of every 100 foals do not make it to the races. I do not know what Mr. Prospector's averages were, but it seems to be in line with the national average.
DDT
Fireslam wrote:Bet those were some old Fair Play mares.
They must have had some fabulous care during their lives. I understand that there are sill some around.
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
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xfactor fan
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Speed is a delicate balance of muscle and bone structure. Mr Prospector was very fast. So his offspring had a chance of being very fast too. Some may have been to fast for their bones. Some may have been under conditioned for their speed and bones.
The physics of equine locomotion dictate that the lower the weight from knee to hoof, the faster the the leg can move.
The physics of equine locomotion dictate that the lower the weight from knee to hoof, the faster the the leg can move.
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Matchemforever
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I was told that Gold Digger had a club foot and passed it on. Can anyone confirm that? I know there are various theories out there about club feet. Had a Mr. Prospector decendant (Before I knew anything about Mr. P) that had a club foot although mild.
Seems I've also seen a photo of Gold Digger with quite a bit on, for just standing for a photo. Was she a bit of trouble?
Seems I've also seen a photo of Gold Digger with quite a bit on, for just standing for a photo. Was she a bit of trouble?
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Patuxet
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vineyridge: How many of the casualties were trained by D. Wayne Lucas?
Louis: Did you overlook the fact that Mr. P's sire, Raise A Native, was already inbred 5X5 to Fair Play through Display and Man O'War?
Louis: Did you overlook the fact that Mr. P's sire, Raise A Native, was already inbred 5X5 to Fair Play through Display and Man O'War?
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
Soundness of the Modern Racehorse
by Avalyn Hunter ©
"The most likely culprit in increased unsoundness, however, is the greatly increased commercial market. Unsound horses were generally not an attractive proposition for breeding in the early part of the century, and those that succeeded did so either because they were exceptional performers despite their physical problems or because they made the best of initially limited opportunities. But in today's market, if a colt of fashionable pedigree can win one or two major races, he is almost certain to receive a reasonable opportunity at stud even if he broke down with only a few starts under his belt. Fillies of similar credentials are routinely sent to the best sires. And established stallions will be forgiven almost any faults they may transmit so long as a good percentage of their youngsters manage to win notable races.
Although the juvenile-heavy purse structure that allowed the early spread of unsoundness no longer exists, early maturity still drives the market for young horses, where a quick return on investment is considered desirable. And most top commercial sires excel at producing horses that can race well at two or, at the latest, early in their three-year-old seasons. But serious faults are more the rule that the exception in this population. Storm Cat, himself an unsound horse who did not race past his juvenile year, routinely transmits his own offset knees; Mr. Prospector's get frequently turned out at the knee and had small feet; Raise a Native contributed top-heaviness and upright pasterns; and Seattle Slew, A.P. Indy, and Unbridled have all tended to sire large, massive specimens who are either very good or woefully unsound. "
http://www.pedigreepost.net/archives/SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
by Avalyn Hunter ©
"The most likely culprit in increased unsoundness, however, is the greatly increased commercial market. Unsound horses were generally not an attractive proposition for breeding in the early part of the century, and those that succeeded did so either because they were exceptional performers despite their physical problems or because they made the best of initially limited opportunities. But in today's market, if a colt of fashionable pedigree can win one or two major races, he is almost certain to receive a reasonable opportunity at stud even if he broke down with only a few starts under his belt. Fillies of similar credentials are routinely sent to the best sires. And established stallions will be forgiven almost any faults they may transmit so long as a good percentage of their youngsters manage to win notable races.
Although the juvenile-heavy purse structure that allowed the early spread of unsoundness no longer exists, early maturity still drives the market for young horses, where a quick return on investment is considered desirable. And most top commercial sires excel at producing horses that can race well at two or, at the latest, early in their three-year-old seasons. But serious faults are more the rule that the exception in this population. Storm Cat, himself an unsound horse who did not race past his juvenile year, routinely transmits his own offset knees; Mr. Prospector's get frequently turned out at the knee and had small feet; Raise a Native contributed top-heaviness and upright pasterns; and Seattle Slew, A.P. Indy, and Unbridled have all tended to sire large, massive specimens who are either very good or woefully unsound. "
http://www.pedigreepost.net/archives/SoundnessAvalynHunter.html
In several instances, if the horse were given time to develop instead of trying to win back the purchase price 10 minutes after a 2 year old sale there would be a lot more sound horses running. I've said it before and I will no doubt say it again, if the colt or filly is going to be 17 hands +, he should not be running in May of his 2 year old year. It isn't so much an inherent unsoundness as ignoring the fact that baby giraffes need time to grow into their bone structure. Trainers and owners trying to run immature horses deserve to have them break down so that they lose their investment.