Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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Patuxet
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Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Patuxet » Tue May 20, 2014 9:14 am

California Chrome's dam, Love The Chase, could be harboring considerable stamina potential. Her sire, Not For Love, is a full brother to Rhythm, a CH 2YO which won the Travers. In a lackluster peripatetic stud career Rhythm sired horses in the US, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.

Most importantly, among Rhythm's NZ horses was a pair of champion stayers: Ethereal won 4 group I events, including the 3200 meters Melbourne Cup, and Zabeat won the NZ G-1 Wellington Cup, also at 3200 meters.

Significantly the under pedigree of each stayer contains Epsom Derby winner Sir Ivor (through Sir Tristam). Note that Sir Ivor is also the 2nd damsire of California Chrome's dam -- and he's followed down the line by a host of other staying influences -- Vaguely Noble, Ribot, Princequillo and finally Beau Pere on Betty Derr.
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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby kimberley mine » Thu May 22, 2014 12:17 pm

I think that Love the Chase's entire family is a stamina family.

Her 2nd dam, Chase the Dream, produced a mare named Amourette whose best victory was at 11f. Amourette produced a Smart Strike filly who is stakes-placed over 8.5f and a Lemon Drop Kid gelding who is SP over 13f and 14f.

My take is that Love the Chase was good enough to win at a short distance although she really wanted 12f+, and that she was bred to a horse who has been an upgrader. Possibly a big upgrader.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby kimberley mine » Thu May 22, 2014 1:01 pm

Patuxet wrote:Most importantly, among Rhythm's NZ horses was a pair of champion stayers: Ethereal won 4 group I events, including the 3200 meters Melbourne Cup, and Zabeat won the NZ G-1 Wellington Cup, also at 3200 meters.

Significantly the under pedigree of each stayer contains Epsom Derby winner Sir Ivor (through Sir Tristam). Note that Sir Ivor is also the 2nd damsire of California Chrome's dam -- and he's followed down the line by a host of other staying influences -- Vaguely Noble, Ribot, Princequillo and finally Beau Pere on Betty Derr.


Also, I wouldn't ascribe any magic to a Numbered Account son over a Sir Ivor-line stallion being some magic bullet for success--Sir Tristram was QUALITY stamina, and Zabeel was QUALITY stamina. The kind that shines through no matter what. Zabeel mares in particular are excellent sources of quality stamina breeding. Rhythm was just the stallion there. On top of that, New Zealand-bred mares tend to be long-winded stamina types anyway.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Patuxet » Fri May 23, 2014 9:29 am

Pedigree expert Ann Ferland posted the following to: [email protected]

"I also have hypothesized that Chrome's dam was carrying a fair amount of stamina around; the short distances she was tried at just didn't suit her and her people thought it was a class thing. After all, Princequillo was a $2500 claimer until Luro claimed him and ran him at Cup distances."

Ann also sees Rhythm as a breeding entity unto himself, something more than "just the stallion there".

"And I, too, noted that Not for Love, sire of Hawthorne Gold Cup (G2, the only G2 left at 10f dirt) winner Duckhorn, was a full brother to the sire of high-class 12-16f winners in New Zealand and Australia, Tapildo (NZ Oaks), Ethereal (Caulfield Cup, Melbourne Cup, a mare), Upsetthym (Aukland Cup, Queen Elizabeth H, a mare), and Zabeat (Wellington Cup, 2nd Sydney Cup). I may not have all the good ones, since recording in my cardfile has been spotty at times. Rhythm had no chance of success in the US with his best being so long-winded. Not for Love's offspring are more variable, but does include stayers like Duckhorn."
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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby kimberley mine » Fri May 23, 2014 5:58 pm

Well, right, except the broodmare sires of his quality stayers are as follows--

Ethereal: Sir Tristram. MAJOR stamina influence.
Zabeat: Zabeel. Zabeel is the prime conduit for stayers down under and he is a son of Sir T.
Upsetthym: Zabeel again (and her dam is German-bred)
Tapildo: Sir Tristram
Eagle Rhythm: Sir Tristram

This line is so dour that both Sir Tristam's and Zabeel's best offspring were out of very, very speedy mares. The Eight Carat family was fast fast fast. Vice Regal (NZ) and Danehill were fast fast fast. Without that injection of pure speed, they didn't win. That said, they were dour as they can be but they were extraordinarily high-class stayers all the same. They sired the likes of Brew, Riverina Charm, Octagonal, Might and Power, Empire Rose, Jezabeel, and the magnificent Vengeance of Rain. Staying is so dominant that even speedy offspring of this line produce long-running horses. Case in point, Reset, whose best win was over 7f and his best offspring are Pinker Pinker (10f), Rebel Raider (12.5f), and Fawkner (12f).

Zabeel and Sir Tristram daughters were and are producing high-class stayers with all kinds of stallions...so if Rhythm got good horses out of those mares, it's because he SHOULD be getting good horses out of those mares, not because he was improving them, or because he was a source of high-class staying talent. Kind of like Defensive Play, who got some good distance runners, but it was because he SHOULD have gotten good distance runners out of the New Zealand mares he saw.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Patuxet » Sun May 25, 2014 12:15 pm

kimberley mine:

You're absolutely right. Sir Tristram was unquestionably the Down Under equivalent of Sadlers Wells in Great Britain, both were supremely dominant contributors of stamina to their offspring. I just seem to place more value on the contribution of Sir Tristram's sire, Sir Ivor -- much as I believe Northern Dancer was responsible at least in part for Sadlers Wells' success.. .

Sir Tristam's dam is an obvious source of stamina, especially through her sire, Round Table, but I sensed a similar potential for stamina in the dam of Chase The Dream -- also by Sir Ivor and 3rd dam of Chrome.

Chase the Dream's dam is by Vaguely Noble, her 2nd damsire is Ribot and her 3rd is Princequllo, all highly valued as proven sources of stamina. Combine that with Sir Ivor in Chase The Dream and you have a potent amalgam which to me has the possibility of contributing an amount of stamina similar to what Sir Tristram in actually provided to the successful distance horses sired by Rhythem, Not For Love's full brother.

I never meant to imply some kind of genetic magic bullet -- only something within the realm of possibility should all the stars align -- and certainly worth considering.

Go Chrome!
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby kimberley mine » Mon May 26, 2014 1:30 pm

I'd actually go back a generation to Sir Gaylord, sire of Sir Ivor, and a son of Somethingroyal.

The main sources of Sir Gaylord in modern US pedigrees are the Gay Missile female family (AP Indy, Lemon Drop Kid, Summer Squall), Bates Motel (via Curlin), Cozzene, and the mare Cap and Bells (El Prado, Drone, Grindstone, Birdstone). That list is a who's who of Belmont winners, distance stallions, and quality.

Now that I look at that list, I think Sir Gaylord is probably the preeminent source of quality stamina in modern US breeding other than Pleasant Colony and Roberto.

I'd love to see Chrome win the Belmont.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby dublino » Fri May 30, 2014 9:49 am

kimberley mine wrote:I'd love to see Chrome win the Belmont.


Really?

Personally I think that this is the worst outcome for American Breeding and Racing.

If Chrome wins, you can imagine how many idiots watching on their TV's at home will go try and claim a horse for $10K and repeat this breeding.

How many horses are going to be bred that shouldn't and end up in the slaughter house?

I don't know how anyone can follow any sport root for its champions and then root for an upstart from a not wanted stallion and a poor racing filly become its hero?

To me he is a genetic blip there has been 1million+ horses like him bred before and not one were any good - he is just that a fluke - I don't see the appeal.
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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Affirmed1 » Fri May 30, 2014 1:43 pm

As I recall, Cozzene is also present, in the top half of C.C.'s pedigree. I would expect some stamina aptitude came from him, also. It makes me wonder how C.C. would do on turf, and whether he might sire turfy types himself, if bred to the right mares. :mrgreen:

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Patuxet » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:03 am

Cozzene certainly contributed stamina as a sire. His get acounted for 113 stakes wins, 28.3% of which were at 9 furlongs and beyond with an over-all average of 9.14 furlongs.

As a broodmare sire it seems to be a different story. At this point his daughters' tally is just 32 stakes wins at an average distance of only 7.64 furlongs and merely 3.1% are at 9 furlongs and beyond. Cozzene is the broodmare sire of Chrome's sire, Lucky Pulpit.
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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Keith » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:00 pm

Love The Chase is 3x3 Numbered Account. Numbered Account is 3x4x5 War Admiral,4x4 La Troienne and 5x5 Selene. Sir Ivor, Vaguely Noble, and Ribot sure could go the distance. Being 3x4 Northern Dancer is an elite sire who sired some elite runners who had stamina. Mr. Prospector crossed with Northern Dancer blood has has had quite the success line breeding Raise a Native and Natalma both offspring of Native Dancer and Nearctic and Nasrullah both offspring of Nearco. Quite a few Triple Crown winners in his pedigree like Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Count Fleet, and War Admiral.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Keith » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:11 pm

Sometimes breeding is a genetic crap shoot and all the right genes lined up when most often they do not. Seattle Slew was not considered all that well bred before he had all the success he has had and he is out of a great mare who is the dam of 2 classic winners and Seattle Slew is one of the greatest sires of our generation. Tiznow is by Cee's Tizzy but look at the sire he has become also out of a great mare. Lucky Pulpit may be the real deal especially since he has not been bred to the best of mares or on the other hand California Chrome may just be a freak and Lucky Pulpit may not be a great sire but just have been lucky to sire a great horse in California Chrome.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby kimberley mine » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:06 pm

I am of the opinion that Lucky Pulpit is an upgrader, and possibly a significant upgrader well beyond what his own race record would imply.

His sire page in the BH stallion register lists his AEI/CI as 1.52/1.17, back at the end of 2013 before California Chrome became a household name. His foals aren't just running in California-bred company, either. His son Rousing Sermon was second by a neck in a Gr-1 as a juvenile. Rousing Sermon's dam has a foal by Tiznow and a foal by Bertrando, neither of whom made more than $40k on the track, compared to Rousing Sermon who has won over $700k and is still running. His son Floating Feather has run out over $250,000 and is his solidly-producing dam's top earner by over $70k. Floating Feather's dam also saw Unusual Heat and Western Fame, so that's saying something. LP's stakes-placed son Woodman's Luck ran through his statebred conditions and is now running with credit in open allowance/AOC company. Woodman's Luck's dam is another solid producer of winners, and her Lucky Pulpit son has so far outrun one by Cee's Tizzy and one by the stalwart Salt Lake. His best filly, Desperate Measures, is the best runner of her dam by almost $100k and his second-best filly, Patty's Pulpit, is the only stakes-placed runner of her good producing dam. Patty's Pulpit is marching through her conditions and will probably move up to her dam's 2nd best earner ahead of an In Excess and behind a Benchmark--again, very good stallions here.

He's not being bred to top-of-the-industry mares, but he is seeing some very useful mares who have been bred to the best of the California stallions, and is improving on those mares as well as cheap ones. IMO a good stallion SHOULD get good foals from good mares....so the fact that he's getting better foals out of good mares than the likes of Unusual Heat, Bertrando, Benchmark, and Salt Lake stands out.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Keith » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:16 pm

Lucky Pulpit's dam Lucky Soph by Cozzene is bred similar to Unbridled's Song's dam Trolley Song by Caro and both being out of Lucky Spell.

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Re: Stamina In California Chrome's Dam?

Postby Keith » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:22 pm

Lucky Pulpit combines the bloodlines of both Seattle Song and Unbridled's Song with Pulpit being a grandson of both Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector and sharing the bloodlines of Icantation the dam of Seattle Song and Lucky Spell and being out of a Cozzene mare as Cozzene is by Caro who is the broodmare sire of Unbridled's Song.