Man O'War and Teddy and his Sons

[vineyridge]

I've been researching Battleship and noticed that he had almost no direct crosses to Teddy or his sons. Now that I think about it, I don't seem to recall nearly as many Man O'War lines being crossed with Teddy lines close up as one would have expected.

Am I imagining things or was there some breeding wisdom going around back then that it was not a particularly good cross? If itwasn't thought to have been a good cross, do we have any idea why?
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[Joltman]

As Man O War's owner, Sam Riddle, only bred him to a small number of his own mares, and those not the highest quality (War Admiral's dam line didn't have a winner for 3 generations!) it would be expected that that a lot of things weren't tried. In the next generation when the sire line was exposed to some other lines there was more opportunity but really the only sons that were top class were at all successful War Admiral, War Relic, Crusader and American flag. Too bad Clyde Van Duesen was a gelding and Scapa Flow didn't get a chance.

From what the pq says, there were 3 bred to Teddy mares. With only 58 foals to work with, Battleship was certainly a success on a percentage basis. What do the bm sire numbers look like for Battleship?

jm
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[Matchemforever]

One of the biggest failings in TB history, IMHO, was how Riddle handled MOW's stud career.

Conjecture re: Teddy-

According to TB Pedigree Query..
Teddy stood in the USA four years, beginning in 1936.
MOW would have been 19 years old before any 4 year old Teddy mares would have been available unless imported, if Pedigree Query is correct.
By that time, the European imports were probably the rage and our own lines not, which MOW represented in large part.
IF Teddy threw temperment issues, and I don't know the answer to that, seems people did not like to take chances there.

Teddy would have returned Bend Or on the bottom with his cross of that stallion on both sides of his pedigree, plus his cross to Hampton which Mahubah had and Macaroni . Fair Play also had a cross to that line via Hermit/Newminster, Newminster the sire of Lord Clifden the sire of Hampton. In fact, Mahubah is full of that and Stockwell and Stockwell is the grandsire of Bend Or.

On paper, if you look back, that cross should have perhaps been pursued. But that's IMHO.

[Bast]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/busanda
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May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio

[Matchemforever]

Bast, that's one heck of an example.

Looking at Businesslike, the dam of Busanda, she only had one foal by War Admiral. With Busanda, you'd think they would have tried that cross again. But no, the horse that gets two tries is Challenger 2, and not a lot of race success with that cross.

[xfactor fan]

Not a lot of crosses to Teddy with Mad Hatter either. Mad Hatter was a 3/4 sibling to Man O'war, Fair Play over a Rock Sand daughter. Looks like he was mostly crossed on Domino line mares. This data comes from the this data base, so there may very well be horses not listed.

Maybe they thought the conformation wasn't a fit?

[Bast]

Here's another:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/striking
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May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio

[Matchemforever]

I guess one could call that a "nick'? War Admiral over daughters of La Troienne. MOW was still around and one is left to imagine what might have been if MOW had been crossed on those mares. I suppose it was more attractive to use the Triple Crown winner.

Of course, you'll find a lot of the same horses in the background but Teddy and even La Troienne, if you look back, carried Bend Or.

Brushup, dam of War Admiral, not so much although you can find Stockwell in the back who was the grandsire of Bend Or.

One wonders about the concentration of that blood, and some Newminster (Hampton through Lord Clifton and others) that made that cross so successful, if not on the track, then in the shed.

I've also wondered why West Australian blood was not used more, although further back.

Look what happened when they used Fairy Gold and Rock Sand in the third ala War Relic- the line that did continue on. Back in the fourth and fifth, that puts Bend Or a lot closer up.

Is the ticket the Hampton/Bend Or there in the background?

On Edit:
Friar's Carse also had Hermit 3 times in the fifth, Hermit by Newminster, Newminster the sire of Lord Clifton, sire of Hampton.

[Matchemforever]

Another, prolific, MOW through War Admiral/Teddy- La Troienne cross:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/searching

Which gets you this when crossed with Swaps, who also had War Admiral and a lot of the Hampton or Hampton related lines:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/affectionately

Searching didn't do so bad when crossed with Hail to Reason, either, bringing back more MOW and Hampton lines:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/admiring

http://www.pedigreequery.com/priceless+gem


Maybe they didn't cross more because the realization came too late?

[Dave C]

Keep in mind the available information at the time. They did not have the internet to easily research pedigrees in depth. They did not have 'virtual stable' to notify them when one of the horses they bred, or was interested in, won a race on the other side of the continent. Most importantly, they did not have a large commercial marketplace that would instantaneously judge their breeding program on the catalog pages of their yearlings.

[ElPrado]

Also, shipping was much more difficult. They didn't ship by truck, they used rail far more often. Air shipping was nonexistent. Many breeders used the mares they owned with the stallions they owned and didn't breed anywhere near as many outside mares. Even crossing Kentucky was difficult. Man O'War was in Virginia, wasn't he, and Riddle didn't accept that many outside mares anyway.

[vineyridge]

If you look at Battleship, for example, not one of his foals has Teddy, Sir Gallahad, Bull Dog or Quatre Bras as damsire.

In my opinion, there is no question at all that La Troienne and her daughters crossed on War Admiral or War Relic was a Nick. Now I'm wondering if the same is true with the last MOW stallion line from Intentionally.

Is Relic still alive as a sire line in Europe? If so, one of his male descendants ought to be brought back. The US mare lines would be fertile ground for such a stallion, although it would not be a sprinter.

WHY is there not an APR equivalent for stallions? France Galop has information online that might be an equivalent, but it's multiple steps, instead of just two.
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[xfactor fan]

Man O'War and War Admiral were very different physical types. Mares that worked with with one, may not have worked with the other.

[vineyridge]

The whole racing industry had to know that Fair Play and his sons and grandsons were often superlative stallions. The whole racing industry had to know that Teddy and his sons were as good as it gets. I'm just a bit surprised at how comparatively little mixing there was among the clans until the late 40s and 50s, when MOW and his sons and Teddy and his sons are just about precisely the same era. I know Colonel Bradley also rarely bred to outside stallions, so maybe that was the prevalent model--breed your own stallion to your own mare band. Certainly that was the Galbreath model with his Darby Dan.

But at the dispersal of the Idle Hour broodmare herd, the big breeders got the mares, evaluated them, and sent them to both inside and outside stallions. IIRC, Businesslike was sold in that dispersal pregnant with Busanda, so even Col. Bradley had come around to War Admiral.
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[xfactor fan]

Didn't Bradley dislike Man O'War? Or was it Fair Play?