The Mares in Great Sires

[vineyridge]

Could it be the mares in his pedigree that make a stallion great?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. If the mares in a pedigree connect with the mares in other stallions' pedigrees, it appears (and I can't do regression analysis, so this is just an impression/hypothesis) that the stallion is more likely to become a truly great sire.

Opinions? I can offer specific examples that led me to this hypothesis.

[Bast]

Could it be the mares in his pedigree that make a stallion great?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. If the mares in a pedigree connect with the mares in other stallions' pedigrees, it appears (and I can't do regression analysis, so this is just an impression/hypothesis) that the stallion is more likely to become a truly great sire.

Opinions? I can offer specific examples that led me to this hypothesis.

It all matters.

The female line carries slightly more importance because of mitochondrial DNA--but a stallion will not express his dam's mitochondrial DNA.

The real mystery of great sires is the failure of some (not all) full brothers. Why was Bold Ruler such a success but not his brothers? Why Northern Dancer and not his 3 full brothers?

[Pan Zareta]

but a stallion will not express his dam's mitochondrial DNA.

Yes he does. A stallion receives and expresses his dam's mtDNA. What he doesn't do is transmit it to his progeny. MtDNA is maternally inherited.

Another reason the dam matters -
http://www.thearkdb.org/arkdb/do/getChromosomeDetails;jsessionid=CEAC93AB15BB411B5CD8ADB61255A778?accession=ARKSPC00000005
The link is to a graphic of the equine chromosomes. Note that the X is second in size only to chrom. #1. Since a stallion receives a single X chrom. from his dam, he gets a few more genes from her than from his sire. Compare the difference in size of the X and the smallest chrom. of all, the Y. The X carries genes unrelated to gender and reproduction. The Y doesn't.

[vineyridge]

I'm not saying its a formula for success. But the truly great ones seem to connect with other stallions through mares.

Example. Blandford who is ubiquitous in the great ones. His sire who was great was out of Canterbury Pilgrim, which connects to Selene and Scapa Flow. He's also got Quiver, who connects with Phalaris. He's out of Blanche from the Black Duchess line, who connects with Bay Ronald and Teddy. He's got Merry Gal, who, through a White Eagle mare, connects with Princequillo, and through her sire, Galopin, connects with St. Simon.

Nearco was more dominant in North America than in Europe, and his mare line goes to Sibola, FF 4-m, which was almost exclusively North American.

Sadlers Wells is another example. And so are Northern Dancer and Native Dancer and Bold Ruler. The later two connect through Discovery daughters, as did Intentionally, and Traffic Judge and Hasty Road.

And the mares in Nasrullah connect with the mares in Princequillo. That's really the only close connection between the two.

Lavendula connects a lot of lines together also.

[DDT]

One of the main reasons why full siblings do not run or breed in a similar fashion could be the fact that they receive a different X Chromosome from their dam in the case of colts and the fact that one X Chromosome shuts down in the fillies in addition to sharing only about 50% of the same genes.

DDT

[louis finochio]

Many breeders concentrate on Chef Stallions in a pedigree, those breeders that look for those Blue Hen mares that consistently bred leading stallions are a key to breeding tons of superior runners. From the mare proceeds the worth.

[Shammy Davis]

DDT wrote:

One of the main reasons why full siblings do not run or breed in a similar fashion could be the fact that they receive a different X Chromosome from their dam in the case of colts and the fact that one X Chromosome shuts down in the fillies in addition to sharing only about 50% of the same genes.

I am not sure I understand.

[Shammy Davis]

Louis posted:

. . . those breeders that look for those Blue Hen mares that consistently bred leading stallions are a key to breeding tons of superior runners. From the mare proceeds the worth.

With this exception of your use of "tons," this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Breeders who focus their programs on the foundation of productive mares with numerous winning foals are successful. Cot Campbell says it is best; "You have to cull to make it in the breeding business."

[DDT]

Shammy

What I was attempting to say is males receive their X Chromosome from their dams, each dam has 2 X Chromosomes and her eggs could contain either one, so one brother gets a different X from the same dam, they are full siblings but each receives a different X. In the case of the fillies, they have 2 X Chromosomes and could receive and express a different X than their full sister. Make any sense now?

DDT

[vineyridge]

Louis, I'm not talking about breeding from good mares. I'm talking about looking for the connections between stallions (and I mean the very commercial great ones) through the mares in their pedigrees. I'm thinking those with close connections are likely to be the sires of sires.

[Bast]

but a stallion will not express his dam's mitochondrial DNA.

Yes he does. A stallion receives and expresses his dam's mtDNA. What he doesn't do is transmit it to his progeny. MtDNA is maternally inherited.

Another reason the dam matters -
http://www.thearkdb.org/arkdb/do/getChromosomeDetails;jsessionid=CEAC93AB15BB411B5CD8ADB61255A778?accession=ARKSPC00000005
The link is to a graphic of the equine chromosomes. Note that the X is second in size only to chrom. #1. Since a stallion receives a single X chrom. from his dam, he gets a few more genes from her than from his sire. Compare the difference in size of the X and the smallest chrom. of all, the Y. The X carries genes unrelated to gender and reproduction. The Y doesn't.

Correct. I misspoke. I was thinking transmission, but typed something else. Thanks for fixing.

[diomed]

Louis, I'm not talking about breeding from good mares. I'm talking about looking for the connections between stallions (and I mean the very commercial great ones) through the mares in their pedigrees. I'm thinking those with close connections are likely to be the sires of sires.

Great response. Many of your top pedigree consultants believe exactly this. The patterns and connections to similarly bred horses just keeps repeating itself over and over since the breed was founded.

Old example; Family 15 descendants(Bald Galloway and Full sister, Points) crossed with the Godolphin Barb.
Carry ons>Blank, Cade, Regulus, Babraham, Mogul, Janus(huge in American pedigrees).....
Then these horses were subsequently crossed in pedigrees. BOOM!!!
Just look at the 5 generation pedigrees of the early Derby(English) winners. It's crazy but there for all to see.
The breed continued on past that with other great crosses building up in later pedigrees.
All one has to do is follow the superior mares and their produce to find this patterning over and over again. It's simply amazing.
Great topic BTW!!!

[Bast]

Louis, I'm not talking about breeding from good mares. I'm talking about looking for the connections between stallions (and I mean the very commercial great ones) through the mares in their pedigrees. I'm thinking those with close connections are likely to be the sires of sires.

Great response. Many of your top pedigree consultants believe exactly this. The patterns and connections to similarly bred horses just keeps repeating itself over and over since the breed was founded.

Old example; Family 15 descendants(Bald Galloway and Full sister, Points) crossed with the Godolphin Barb.
Carry ons>Blank, Cade, Regulus, Babraham, Mogul, Janus(huge in American pedigrees).....
Then these horses were subsequently crossed in pedigrees. BOOM!!!
Just look at the 5 generation pedigrees of the early Derby(English) winners. It's crazy but there for all to see.
The breed continued on past that with other great crosses building up in later pedigrees.
All one has to do is follow the superior mares and their produce to find this patterning over and over again. It's simply amazing.
Great topic BTW!!!

But it's not patterns on paper that produce the results. It's emphasis on quality. The pedigree on paper is not the horse doing the running.

[diomed]

Louis, I'm not talking about breeding from good mares. I'm talking about looking for the connections between stallions (and I mean the very commercial great ones) through the mares in their pedigrees. I'm thinking those with close connections are likely to be the sires of sires.

Great response. Many of your top pedigree consultants believe exactly this. The patterns and connections to similarly bred horses just keeps repeating itself over and over since the breed was founded.

Old example; Family 15 descendants(Bald Galloway and Full sister, Points) crossed with the Godolphin Barb.
Carry ons>Blank, Cade, Regulus, Babraham, Mogul, Janus(huge in American pedigrees).....
Then these horses were subsequently crossed in pedigrees. BOOM!!!
Just look at the 5 generation pedigrees of the early Derby(English) winners. It's crazy but there for all to see.
The breed continued on past that with other great crosses building up in later pedigrees.
All one has to do is follow the superior mares and their produce to find this patterning over and over again. It's simply amazing.
Great topic BTW!!!

But it's not patterns on paper that produce the results. It's emphasis on quality. The pedigree on paper is not the horse doing the running.

Well, duh.
Those "superior" mares are what I am talking about with the associated crosses that produced results. There are numerous examples of this to see and for breeders to keep exploiting. I like what they used to do, keep crossing a possible good producing mare 3 times or more to the same stallion before going to another. Hence why there were so many more full siblings to experiment with. It really does start with the pedigree to me. It's never a guarantee but that is where it starts. Of course the physical match should be good as well. Then, as we all know, upbringing(nutrition,etc.), training and luck come into play. All things are factors.
To say it is just one thing is foolhardy of course. But I will still stand by my belief that it all starts with the Pedigree(Genetics). That is why all the new findings are so exciting indeed.

[Bast]

Well, duh.

I've known people (largely in Arabians) who worshipped the pedigree. The individual horse might be a walking disaster, but they didn't care because of the pedigree of the beast.

Not so duh for many.

The Blue Star/Blue List/Pyramid Society "we have purebreds and you don't" types were the silliest.