family 23b

[stancaris]

In this years Derby the winner, I'll Have Another and the show horse Dullahan both carry family 23b in tail female. A strong family that has generated Derby winners, Affirmed, Lil E Tee in 1992 and I'll Have Another in 2012. If one goes back before 1977 and looks at those years going back to 1950 there are probably several more Derby winners that carried family 23b in tail female.

[diomed]

Off the top of my head; Zev and Tim Tam come to mind.
This is the family of the great speedball Domino.

[vineyridge]

This is one of the greatest mare families in US History. It stems here from the UK import in about 1830, Gallopade, and her great daughters. The family begins with a British mare, but has no presence at all except from Gallopade in North America. I know it's the family of Chris Evert and Tim Tam.

[Bill from WA]

You can throw Winning Colors into the mix.

[Pan Zareta]

Family 23 winners of the KD in addition to those already named above - Mine That Bird, Ponder (23), Burgoo King (23-a), Kingman, Montrose.
(23-b unless otherwise noted)

[vineyridge]

It's the family of some really exceptional racing females as well. Add Two Lea to Winning Colors and Chris Evert just for the biggest of the big names.

PZ, according to Bloodlines, Ponder is straight family 23, not 23b.

Now I have a historical question after reading the notes on 23.

Was this whole family not included in the GSB as Thoroughbred until the 1891 GSB 5th edition? Was the 5th edition a major revamping of the GSB and were many additional lines added then? Is there a history of the GSB somewhere online? I'm sort of wondering if the revamped GSB was in some way connected with the Jersey Act? If, perhaps, GSB wasn't really closed until the 5th edition, and then was treated as totally authoritative, final, and carved in stone by the British racing establishment?

[Pan Zareta]

Viney, please read my posts only after I'm done editing and correcting them.

Yes, there was major revamping to GSB 1 ed. 5 1891. More info about that & family 23 here -
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family23.htm#Family23andEarlySources. Ed 5 may to some degree reflect an increasing interest in purity of bloodlines, but the main precipitating factor for the Jersey Act was, imho, the major increase in the number of American TBs on the turf, in the stud and for sale in the British Isles during the years of the 'racing blackouts' in NorthAm.

[aethervox]

The "Iron Horse", Discovery, was also 23b (finished 2nd in Derby).

[xfactor fan]

According to the Sport Horse Data base, Family 23 goes back to Brocklesby Betty who has the following information posted : "Was thought to be superior to any Horse or Mare of her time. not withstanding she was a brood mare before she was trained."

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=701093

Brocklesby Betty was by the Curwin Bay Barb out of a "Hobby Mare" who was by the Lister Turk.

Perhaps this particular strain of mtDNA is one of the speed lines? Pretty much the only thing that modern TB's would have in common with this "Hobby Mare" is the mtDNA which passes down the tail female line.

[vineyridge]

I just found an old book which talks about the GSB. The author said that he had done a comparision between the 1st GSB of 1803 and the 1827 edition, A, B and M, he found that approximately 10% of the families in the 1803 1st GSB had been omitted from the 1827 edition. By families, the author means broodmares and their produce.

Do we have any clues as to why?

The book is on Google books and called The Horse of America in his Derivation, History, and Development, was published in 1895 and is by John Harden Wallace. Man thinks that Messenger's pedigree and UK connections were fraudulent and that Messenger was NOT a TB.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2aUCAA ... 683&edge=0

The rest of the paragraph:
http://books.google.com/books?id=2aUCAA ... 223&edge=0

[xfactor fan]

My understanding of the Jersey act was that too many American bred horses were winning, so the Brits changed the rules to keep them out. There were other "official" reasons having to do with bloodlines, but it was keeping money at home that was the motivating factor.

Dropping 10% of the horses in the stud book may have been the same sort of deal.

As for Messenger, any hints as to why he wasn't considered a TB?

[Jeff]

34 Years later, the Triple Crown winner looks like he's going to be from family 23b again. 23b, The new #1.

[smartyslew]

This is one of the greatest mare families in US History. It stems here from the UK import in about 1830, Gallopade, and her great daughters. The family begins with a British mare, but has no presence at all except from Gallopade in North America. I know it's the family of Chris Evert and Tim Tam.

does glencoe get any credit for this great family 23-b
how many of his daughters are in this tff?for that matter how many of his
daughters and their progeny started female branches in all female families.
like 3,8,5, 4, and others

[smartyslew]

This is one of the greatest mare families in US History. It stems here from the UK import in about 1830, Gallopade, and her great daughters. The family begins with a British mare, but has no presence at all except from Gallopade in North America. I know it's the family of Chris Evert and Tim Tam.

does glencoe get any credit for this great family 23-b
how many of his daughters are in this tff?for that matter how many of his
daughters and their progeny started female branches in all female families.
like 3,8,5, 4, and others

[xfactor fan]

This is one of those depends on what you are tracking questions.

If the answer is mtDNA, then no, Glenco doesn't figure in. If a number of Glenco daughters from different mtDNA families went on to be founders of their own branches, then yes.