I don't have access to the mares he was bred to.
He is staning for $5,000 now and is an absolute steal
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... ree=125809
Compare his numbers to Curlin and he is way ahead of him and he is $25,000 - and Big Brown who is at $10,000
Recomendations for mare?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
dublino wrote:I don't have access to the mares he was bred to.
He is staning for $5,000 now and is an absolute steal
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... ree=125809
Compare his numbers to Curlin and he is way ahead of him and he is $25,000 - and Big Brown who is at $10,000
In 2013, Pleasantly Perfect had 6 crops of racing age. Both Curlin and Big Brown had only 2 crops at the track. When you're looking at cumulative results--as your comparison did--that's a huge difference in opportunity.
By any standard you might use to compare his numbers to Curlin and/or Big Brown, he is underperforming both of them--except the one you chose: number of foals of racing age.
LB wrote:except the one you chose: number of foals of racing age.
How else can you compare them?
Thats the dumbest thing I have ever seen on this board and that includes stuff written by BWD.
And what opportunity is Pleasantly Perfect getting 6 crops averaging 50 foals a crop compared with the other two donkeys averaging 100 foals a crop and he is way outperforming them.
In fact looking at your way makes him more impressive, with less opportunity and less quality mares he is way out performing both theses donkeys put together.
Edited by Moderator
dublino wrote:LB wrote:except the one you chose: number of foals of racing age.
How else can you compare them?
Thats the dumbest thing I have ever seen on this board and that includes stuff written by BWD.
And what opportunity is Pleasantly Perfect getting 6 crops averaging 50 foals a crop compared with the other two donkeys averaging 100 foals a crop and he is way outperforming them.
In fact looking at your way makes him more impressive, with less opportunity and less quality mares he is way out performing both theses donkeys put together.
Ah, dub. I wouldn't hurry to call someone dumb. Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll try once more to explain.
According to your comparision, Pleasantly Perfectly has 332 registered foals. Curlin has 241, Big Brown 215. Do you not see that a horse with more offspring (due solely to his older age) has had more opportunity for success?
Not only does PP have 50% more registered offspring than the other two stallions, you are also overlooking the fact that approximately 1/3 of Curlin's and Big Brown's foals aren't even old enough to race yet. It's hardly a fair comparison.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... lor=000000
I love her with Aikenite, 4X4 Secretariat through 2 daughers. Also love his photo in the Bloodhorse: Huge Hip!
I'd think you could get him quite a big cheaper than his advertised fee as his first crop are yearlings of 2014.
Alphabet Soup back in Kentucky at Adena Springs; He'd works well with Mr. P line mares.
Big Brown: I like it, his best runners so far have sons of Mr P as broodmare sires.
Creative Cause: Millionaire G1 stakes winner at 2, and his sire and dam are millionaires too. No runners on the ground yet, might get his stud fee reduced as your mare was a stakes winner at 2.
Einstein: His first crop of 2 year olds love Mr. P line mares.
Langfuhr: a proven record of NOT crossing well with Mr. P line mares, I'd avoid him like the plague.
Morning Line: I like him, by Tiznow; seems to be an ascending sire line, and he puts AP Indy over your mare's Pioneering, give that AP Indy/Mr. P nick a shot; hard to find without adding more Mr P.
Santiva: A Giant's Causeway horse without adding anymore Mr. P. Would try it.
Sky Classic: Oldie but Goodie, has crossed well with Mr. P line mares.
Touch Gold: He's got some good runners out of Mr. P line mares.
Yes It's True: Nice outcross, he puts Mr. P line runners on the ground.
I've pretty much avoided any cross that would duplicate Mr. P or RAN, being's Ohio Star is already 2x4 MR. P (3X3) equivalent, I think that's enough.
I love her with Aikenite, 4X4 Secretariat through 2 daughers. Also love his photo in the Bloodhorse: Huge Hip!
I'd think you could get him quite a big cheaper than his advertised fee as his first crop are yearlings of 2014.
Alphabet Soup back in Kentucky at Adena Springs; He'd works well with Mr. P line mares.
Big Brown: I like it, his best runners so far have sons of Mr P as broodmare sires.
Creative Cause: Millionaire G1 stakes winner at 2, and his sire and dam are millionaires too. No runners on the ground yet, might get his stud fee reduced as your mare was a stakes winner at 2.
Einstein: His first crop of 2 year olds love Mr. P line mares.
Langfuhr: a proven record of NOT crossing well with Mr. P line mares, I'd avoid him like the plague.
Morning Line: I like him, by Tiznow; seems to be an ascending sire line, and he puts AP Indy over your mare's Pioneering, give that AP Indy/Mr. P nick a shot; hard to find without adding more Mr P.
Santiva: A Giant's Causeway horse without adding anymore Mr. P. Would try it.
Sky Classic: Oldie but Goodie, has crossed well with Mr. P line mares.
Touch Gold: He's got some good runners out of Mr. P line mares.
Yes It's True: Nice outcross, he puts Mr. P line runners on the ground.
I've pretty much avoided any cross that would duplicate Mr. P or RAN, being's Ohio Star is already 2x4 MR. P (3X3) equivalent, I think that's enough.
LB wrote:Ah, dub. I wouldn't hurry to call someone dumb. Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll try once more to explain.
According to your comparision, Pleasantly Perfectly has 332 registered foals. Curlin has 241, Big Brown 215. Do you not see that a horse with more offspring (due solely to his older age) has had more opportunity for success?
Not only does PP have 50% more registered offspring than the other two stallions, you are also overlooking the fact that approximately 1/3 of Curlin's and Big Brown's foals aren't even old enough to race yet. It's hardly a fair comparison.
Firstly your not dumb, you just said something dumb.
Secondly I'll explain it again as you don't seem to have got it the first time.
Take away Curlins and Big Browns 1/3 of foals as you say are not old enough to race.
Curlin has then 160 foals and still only 5 stakes winners and 1 Graded winner.
Big Brown has 140 foals and still only 5 stakes winners and 1 Graded winner.
Pleasantly has 320 so half of that compared to Curlin is 7.5 stakes winners and 2.5 Graded winners.
Pleasantly has 320 so 140 = 44% to compare to Big Brown is 6.6 stakes winners and 2.2 graded winners.
PP mares CI of 1.85 Curlin 2.53 and Big Brown 1.99
Pleantly still wins get it now?
And that doesn't even factor in PP foals which are to young to race yet.
Edited by Moderator
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
I'm not averse to linebreeding to more Mr P if you will get a runner.
As far as who gets runners in your budget, it's very, very difficult to look past Successful Appeal. For $10k, he's one of the best you'll find in terms of median earnings. For breeding to race, especially if you can get into a state-bred program with breeders awards, he's a no-brainer. Should you need to sell, his foals will sell for a fair price (you won't make a huge profit but won't take a bath either).
Yes It's True is another good stallion--not as good as Successful Appeal but good for the price.
Alphabet Soup is a good horse but, like his close relative Mizzen Mast, he has a straight hind leg and passes it on. If your mare is already upright, especially if she's a bit upright behind, pass.
In the $15k price point, it's hard to get excited about a lot of the horses there for your mare for breed-to-race. First Samurai is about the only one I'd consider. Hat Trick and Artie Schiller are grass which is iffy for breed-to-race (if you live in a state with a poly track, Artie Schiller will be OK), First Defence and Proud Citizen not that keen on pedigree, and the rest are unproven. Spring at Last, not sure what to make of him. Either way, IMO you'd be better off saving yourself $5k and going to Successful Appeal.
For $5000, Daaher is....kind of interesting, actually. Out of 29 foals 3 years of age and older, half are winners, and 5 have earned more than $30,000 on the track. Seems like most have raced on turf (in Europe) or synth. Again, if you have a synth track, he could be worth a look.
Stephen Got Even can produce runners, and pedigree-wise as AP Indy without a cross of Prospector will appreciate that. Could do better with percent winners from starters, but that's why he's standing at $5k I guess.
Finally if you're in Florida, Awesome Of Course is a no-brainer.
As far as who gets runners in your budget, it's very, very difficult to look past Successful Appeal. For $10k, he's one of the best you'll find in terms of median earnings. For breeding to race, especially if you can get into a state-bred program with breeders awards, he's a no-brainer. Should you need to sell, his foals will sell for a fair price (you won't make a huge profit but won't take a bath either).
Yes It's True is another good stallion--not as good as Successful Appeal but good for the price.
Alphabet Soup is a good horse but, like his close relative Mizzen Mast, he has a straight hind leg and passes it on. If your mare is already upright, especially if she's a bit upright behind, pass.
In the $15k price point, it's hard to get excited about a lot of the horses there for your mare for breed-to-race. First Samurai is about the only one I'd consider. Hat Trick and Artie Schiller are grass which is iffy for breed-to-race (if you live in a state with a poly track, Artie Schiller will be OK), First Defence and Proud Citizen not that keen on pedigree, and the rest are unproven. Spring at Last, not sure what to make of him. Either way, IMO you'd be better off saving yourself $5k and going to Successful Appeal.
For $5000, Daaher is....kind of interesting, actually. Out of 29 foals 3 years of age and older, half are winners, and 5 have earned more than $30,000 on the track. Seems like most have raced on turf (in Europe) or synth. Again, if you have a synth track, he could be worth a look.
Stephen Got Even can produce runners, and pedigree-wise as AP Indy without a cross of Prospector will appreciate that. Could do better with percent winners from starters, but that's why he's standing at $5k I guess.
Finally if you're in Florida, Awesome Of Course is a no-brainer.
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
I went through your mare's damline looking for performers, and one thing that jumped out is how under her 3rd dam, the two best performers (and best performers in the pedigree) both had a cross to Numbered Account, one through her son Private Account and one through her grandson Rhythm (via Dance Number).
If you want to try for that, under proven stallions in your budget there's Not For Love, although that IS a bit closer to Mr Prospector than probably ideal, Bluegrass Cat who is useful enough but had a huge opportunity and didn't perform, and Discreet Cat, who is out of your budget (but you may be able to find a season). Unproven there is the very fast Discreetly Mine, Trappe Shot, Super Saver, Parading, Baronial in PA, and Brethren in FL.
If you're in Ohio and willing to consider an Indiana stallion, Ventana at Indiana Stallion Station brings in Numbered Account via Polish Numbers. He was fast and ran well in good company on dirt, turf, and synth (opening up Arlington, Keeneland, Turfway, and possible Presque Isle). Third dam produced the stalwart Lord Avie and there is plenty of stakes production including graded stakes, and given the number of long-runners and a Gr-1 winning chaser, there's soundness there. Downside for breed to race is that he's not proven. Could open the possibility of, say, an IN-bred Successful Appeal followed by a Ventana....an IN-bred Successful Appeal, if it runs like the rest of them, could probably make a lot of money.
If you want to try for that, under proven stallions in your budget there's Not For Love, although that IS a bit closer to Mr Prospector than probably ideal, Bluegrass Cat who is useful enough but had a huge opportunity and didn't perform, and Discreet Cat, who is out of your budget (but you may be able to find a season). Unproven there is the very fast Discreetly Mine, Trappe Shot, Super Saver, Parading, Baronial in PA, and Brethren in FL.
If you're in Ohio and willing to consider an Indiana stallion, Ventana at Indiana Stallion Station brings in Numbered Account via Polish Numbers. He was fast and ran well in good company on dirt, turf, and synth (opening up Arlington, Keeneland, Turfway, and possible Presque Isle). Third dam produced the stalwart Lord Avie and there is plenty of stakes production including graded stakes, and given the number of long-runners and a Gr-1 winning chaser, there's soundness there. Downside for breed to race is that he's not proven. Could open the possibility of, say, an IN-bred Successful Appeal followed by a Ventana....an IN-bred Successful Appeal, if it runs like the rest of them, could probably make a lot of money.
dublino wrote:LB wrote:Ah, dub. I wouldn't hurry to call someone dumb. Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll try once more to explain.
According to your comparision, Pleasantly Perfectly has 332 registered foals. Curlin has 241, Big Brown 215. Do you not see that a horse with more offspring (due solely to his older age) has had more opportunity for success?
Not only does PP have 50% more registered offspring than the other two stallions, you are also overlooking the fact that approximately 1/3 of Curlin's and Big Brown's foals aren't even old enough to race yet. It's hardly a fair comparison.
Firstly your not dumb, you just said something dumb.
Secondly I'll explain it again as you don't seem to have got it the first time.
Take away Curlins and Big Browns 1/3 of foals as you say are not old enough to race.
Curlin has then 160 foals and still only 5 stakes winners and 1 Graded winner.
Big Brown has 140 foals and still only 5 stakes winners and 1 Graded winner.
Pleasantly has 320 so half of that compared to Curlin is 7.5 stakes winners and 2.5 Graded winners.
Pleasantly has 320 so 140 = 44% to compare to Big Brown is 6.6 stakes winners and 2.2 graded winners.
PP mares CI of 1.85 Curlin 2.53 and Big Brown 1.99
Pleantly still wins get it now?
And that doesn't even factor in PP foals which are to young to race yet.
I dont know where you are getting your numbers from. Curlins first crop just turned 4. He had 97 foals, 5 stakes winners, and several more stakes placed. His second crop just turned 3, so no one would expect anything from them yet. Pleasantly Perfects oldest just turned 8. So you're trying to compare a stallion whos first foals are only 4 to a stallion who has several crops that have completely finished racing? Good luck with that.
Fireslam wrote:I dont know where you are getting your numbers from. Curlins first crop just turned 4. He had 97 foals, 5 stakes winners, and several more stakes placed. His second crop just turned 3, so no one would expect anything from them yet. Pleasantly Perfects oldest just turned 8. So you're trying to compare a stallion whos first foals are only 4 to a stallion who has several crops that have completely finished racing? Good luck with that.
So up to $400,000 for a horse that might run between the ages of 4 and 8 from a sire that currently stands for $25,000 - your argument makes plenty of sense!
Edited by Moderator
Are you purposely acting stupid just to make an argument? What about that is hard to understand? Let me make it easier on you. Curlin had 5 stakes winners in his first crop, as 3 year olds. His second crop just turned 3. So his second crop hasnt had a chance to run yet. Pleasantly Perfect's best horses did their best running at 4 and older. So he gets a pass, but Curlin doesnt?
I just looked at the 2013 General sire list and noted that Pleasantly Perfect is sitting at the bottom...very bottom...below even Perfect Soul....with the same number of runners....no stakes....
I don't see it. Nothing to recommend him. I get that one year doesn't paint the full picture....but why would anyone take that kind of chance. No way
I don't see it. Nothing to recommend him. I get that one year doesn't paint the full picture....but why would anyone take that kind of chance. No way
ct2346 wrote:I just looked at the 2013 General sire list and noted that Pleasantly Perfect is sitting at the bottom...very bottom...below even Perfect Soul....with the same number of runners....no stakes....
I don't see it. Nothing to recommend him. I get that one year doesn't paint the full picture....but why would anyone take that kind of chance. No way
What chance he is a proven sire standing for $5,000 for the mare I was commenting on, Ohio Star, for people who are breed to race, again where is the risk?
Edited by Moderator