Depth of Inbreeding

[dray33]

When planning matings for your mare, I wonder about what is considered the "acceptable" amount of inbreeding. I really like Pulpit as a sire, I think he is potentially the next quarter-million dollar sire. But when I checked mating him to some of my mares... with one I came up with 3x3 to Seattle Slew.

Now my favorite sire is Broad Brush. To create him, the breeder has HAY PATCHER, a talented race mare. HAY PATCHER was bred to RAISE A NATIVE first (inbred 4x4 to Man O'War) STRAWPATCH, the resulting filly was unraced. Next, she went to VAGUELY NOBEL, and had a colt (inbred to NEARCO 3x4) who was a minor winner. HAY PATCHER returns next to MAJESTIC LIGHT and has a filly, HER MAJESTY... another minor winner.

The 4th breeding attempt, they chose ACK ACK, even though it meant inbreeding 3x3 to TURN TO. They have BROAD BRUSH.

So I ask you, what are the determining factors that makes inbreeding 3x3 to anyone a good idea? Or a bad one.

[dray33]

Anyone?

[larrygene]

dray, I honestly don't think you can get to much Mr. Prospector. I have a yearling filly that is 4x4 Mr. P and she is awesome!!! I look at pedigrees every day and I see 3x3, 3x4 Mr. P's winning and winning big races. When it comes to close inbreeding to Seattle Slew I don't see that being manifest. I think Slew was a very good sire but to me Mr. P has been the most dominant sire on both sides of the pedigree in the last 100 years. I believe he will someday rival the great St. Simon. Mr. P's sons and daughters continue to pass him on and on. JMO

Larrygene

[fletch621]

Take a look at horses with 3 lines of Mr. P.... it looks like if one is through Fappiano, then you're golden. It certainly does seem like you can't get enough Mr. P. What I find intriguing is how many "foundation" sires and mares are very closely inbred to superior females especially.

[larrygene]

fletch, I have noticed the same thing.

[DDT]

dray33

The 3 matings you mention, the Raise A Native actually is 5x5 to Man O' War, the Vaguely Noble was 3x5 to Nearco, 5x5 to Bahram and other patterns and the Majestic Light was 3x4 to Ribot, all of which could be considered close except the 5x5.

I think it is more significant when sirelines are inbred directly, such as, crossing a granddaughter of Turn To to a grandson of Turn To. In Broad Brush's case, the 3x3 to Turn To was the result of Turn To daughters through dam sires, Ack Ack, the sire of Broad Brush was out of Fast Turn, a daughter of Turn To and his dam, Hay Patcher was also out of a daughter of Turn To.

Turn To's influence through his daughters may or may not have had a significant genetic contribution to Broad Brush.

Because Pulpit decends tail male to Seattle Slew I may not want to use him with a mare that is also tail male Seattle Slew, but a mare that gets the Seattle Slew through the broodmare sire line might be acceptable.

DDT

[dray33]

It's interesting because you bothseem to think that 3x3 is no big deal, and for some reason I thought bells go off when you see that in a pedigree. That's why I thought Broad Brush's pedigree was so interesting. And inbreeding to Mr. P, or Fappiano... wow. I thought that inbreeding Turn To was risky. I still have a lot to learn!

So 3x3 is considered safe. Im still a bit wary of it.

[dray33]

[dray33]

I ran an inbreeding report on Seattle Slew. 5x5 parameters and got 73 results. What is interesting is of these inbred horses, WHERE the Seattle Slew appears. There are instances of 2x4, and 3x3. But WHERE on the chart SS appears is fascinating. Breeding a mare with SS as broodmare sire to a stallion sired by SS is much rarer than breeding the opposite.

Look: MAGALA STAR:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&all=n&horse=MALAGA+STAR&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

and: ARROGANCE
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&all=n&horse=ARROGANCE6&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

and: GENERAL RULE
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&all=n&horse=GENERAL+RULE&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Look at the different "positions" of SLEW in these Examples. Which would you recommend as safe?

[DDT]

dray33

I don't know if 3x3 is acceptable, if that is the right word, some breeders think that 3x3 is okay, even 2x3, and some go as far as 2x2, it all depends on what theory you embrace. Many people believe that 3x3 under any circumstance is too close, so acceptable may not be the right term here.

In my opinion, if the 3x3 results from sire line to broodmare sire line, or broodmare sire line to broodmare sire line, I believe it is fine, that does not mean that my opinion is the correct way of thinking.

DDT

[LC]

I was just looking at a hypo-mating that kinda fits into this discussion. Take a look @ the prospective foal by Conscience Clear o/o Rose of Gallapiat. I realize CC isn't anything to write home about but find this mating intriguing. The physical match is there &, as a bred to race baby, almost impossible to resist. Am I crazy? What do you think?

[madelyn]

[jagger]

Madelyn, How did you arrive at the 1280 times that Mr. P has been inbred? I would have thought it would have been way more than that, inside 5 x 5 or are you counting 4 x 4? My Goldmine data is admittedly a little out of date but I only show slightly more than 50 GSW's as a result of a Mr. P inbreeding. The references about Fappiano are correct as he is far and away the best conduit to Mr. P when attempting an inbreeding. I think 18 of the approximately 50 GSW's when inbred to Mr. P had Fappiano as the conduit.

[Roguelet]

[madelyn]