Northern Dancer

[Elles]

Why did Natalma and Nearctic form such a huge explosive combination in Northern Dancer? Is there an explanation to be found in linebreeding? Northern Dancer's full sister proved to form an explosive mix with Buckpasser. Is there any explanation to be found there with regard to linebreeding?

[Matchemforever]

I am no expert on pedigrees, just have an interest.

Natalma shows no linebreeding that I see in a 5 generation, other than 2 crosses of Fair Play in the 5th. Natalma with Nearctic provides 2 crosses with Gainsborough in ND.

Nearctic is interesting for the amount of Canterbury Pilgrim and St. Simon in the 5th.

Polymelus threads through ND in various ways.

In the immediate 5 generation, it looks like they returned Polymelus in the sire lines of Nearctic and Natalma, and Gainsborugh in the dam lines of Nearctic and Natalma.

Which is probably not an answer and has happened a gazillion times since.


Buckpasser has Polymelus again on top; Fair Play much closer in the dam line, where he appears in ND's dam lines (Sire's dam and broodmare sire) as well; and two crosses to Teddy, which is going to bring back the Hampton blood- Gainsborough goes back to Hampton, as does Mahubah.

Those lines are in ND as well.

That probably doesn't help answer the question. Just looks like a certain consistency in bloodlines but not always in the first 3 generations?

[Elles]

Thank you very much for the input. That about Hampton I had not noticed myself.

[Matchemforever]

I think Hampton gets ignored a lot. (As well as noting when Lord Clifton, Hampton's sire, is present as well in pedigrees with Hampton, but not through Hampton)

But in Holstein, they really, REALLY used that blood a lot. Mostly through Dark Ronald but not exclusively.

When you see Alibhai in a pedigree, http://www.pedigreequery.com/alibhai
it's male line Hampton through Hyperion, although Hyperion had more crosses of other lines than Hampton.

Swaps is interesting:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/swaps

His pedigree if full of Hampton top and bottom. If you take the female side and Iron Maiden back further than the 5-gen, you'll find Hampton through Teddy and Mahubah.

That Swaps wasn't more of a powerhouse as a sire is a puzzle to me but that's another thread!
(Not that Affectionately and Primonetta were not accomplishments for the ages. Swaps was a good sire but I don't hear much about him these days
when people discuss pedigrees)

Couldn't help myself- Kelso is also male line Hampton, Your Host carries two crosses of Gainsborough. Maid of Flight, his dam, is a Man O' War granddaughter and Swaps dam, Iron Reward, a great-granddaughter of Man O' War. Mahubah, MOW's dam, would provide more Hampton.

Interesting now that I look at it that both horses had that kind of cross in the pedigree.

I have to stop before I completely hijack the OP's original post!

[Elles]

Please feel free to hijack as much as you like .

[Elles]

The dam of our filly Lunar Melody named Lucky on Wings has Hampton 121 times within her 15 generations pedigree. This makes for an influence of 6 x 6. So this is a good thing? Also the sire of Lunar Melody named Golden Snake must have quite some Hampton blood I think.

[vineyridge]

I believe that Hampton is one of the three critical lines for sport horses. If you don't find Hampton, you are not going to find jumpers. Of course, Black Duchess is also important, since she is the tail female granddam of Blanche, the dam of Blandford, and she is also the dam of Bay Ronald. Bay Ronald is the sire of Rondeau, dam of Teddy, along with Bayardo and Dark Ronald.

Rondeau has a huge amount of Herod through Doremi, while Hampton has a line to Matchem through Melbourne and many other lines to Herod.

I read somewhere that Macaroni was an incredible nick with Vedette/Voltigeur. He is doubled in Rondeau.

Hampton is Tail Female Queen Mary, who is the root of female family 10-a Galicia, Bayardo's dam is also Tail Female Queen Mary. Sort of makes you think about the reinforcement of the female lines.
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[vineyridge]

On the Original Post--as I've mentioned before, I believe that all three of the founding sire lines have to be present in the first five (for males) or six (for female sires) generations for the foal to be strong in performance and in the breeding shed. It's a question of "vital energy", as it were.

Natalma has the Matchem line from Discovery and multiple Herod lines on the first page, mostly on the dam side.

Nearctic has an incredible number of great mares in his pedigree. And you also have to remember that every cross of St. Simon gives a minimum of two crosses back to Herod through The Flying Duchess and Pocahontas. The more Pocahontas and The Fllying Duchess that you find, the stronger that blood to Herod. Canterbury Pilgrim's Tail Female Secret is Matchem top and bottom. So every cross to her reinforces the Matchem lines.

I believe that once you've got past the hurdle of the three lines within 5/6, you can then look at the other aspects of line or in breeding.
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[Matchemforever]

Here's some of the important TB's used by Holstein:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/cottage+son

Brings Hampton in via male line and dam's broodmare line; Rock Sand sire's broodmare/dam's sire.


http://www.pedigreequery.com/ladykiller

Hampton via the broodmare lines top and bottom; Phalaris via sire lines top and bottom- but not through Selene offspring. Scapa Flow and Canyon are by Chaucer like Selene. I've seen very little of the Phalaris/Selene cross used by Holstein. Ladykiller carries Selene but through Hyperion.



http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/anblick

At least three crosses here, Ayrshire is also by Hampton.

Take a look at the picture of Anblick and then Landgraf:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/landgraf12


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sacramento+song

Hampton through Gay Crusader, Dark Ronald, and third dam Galaday had two more crosses.


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marlon

Marlon too although perhaps a little less.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/manometer

Plus Ksar in this one.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rantzau
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/furioso2


Now that I think about it, I wonder if Anblick was the one that got them going with the Dark Ronald (Hampton) blood. In varying degrees, most of the TB's used in the Holsteiner, at least in the past, are going to carry the Hampton blood.

[vineyridge]

Furioso is Matchem sire line and Herod through The Tetrarch on the bottom.

Don't forget that the dam of Polymelus was a Hampton daughter. Ladas was a Hampton son who was used in German breeding.

Was discussing Hampton once, and the counterargument to his ubiquity in German WB breeding is that he was simply available though Dark Ronald and Teddy, so most German TBs were heavily Hampton.
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[Matchemforever]

"Was discussing Hampton once, and the counterargument to his ubiquity in German WB breeding is that he was simply available though Dark Ronald and Teddy, so most German TBs were heavily Hampton."


Well, I can't get to the TB heritage web site right now, but I believe Hampton was raced over the fences for a while.

Maybe they used that line once and liked what they saw, but they KEPT using it a LOT. I believe Ladykiller was bought out of England and taken to Germany and bingo- Landgraf, who also has Hampton through Anblick.

Maybe once, because it was available- but they also brought more of it in, a lot more of it.


They knew what the were after:
http://www.holsteiner.com/impulsion/bayron1.html

"It was not through his German born sons, however, that Dark Ronald made his most lasting impression in the sport horse world. Son-in-Law, was bred in England prior to Dark Ronald's exportation to Germany, and was described as a "plodding distance horse," (or a horse with plenty of stamina but little real speed), though he became an important sire. His offspring were known to be late maturing and he was considered the best source of stamina in Great Britain, siring many classic winners. Son-in-Law's influence through his daughters resulted in some of the world's leading sires, including Fair Trial and Round Table. As a sire, Son-in-Law was prepotent for tremendous stamina, a quality which is frequently found in partnership with jumping ability and steeplechasing successes.


"In Holstein they have always looked out for Thoroughbred stallions (in England and Ireland) with the blood of Dark Ronald and Son-in-Law so that they would match their own German Dark Ronald strains," Henk Dikkers reports.


It was obviously a desire to capture more of this precious blood which led to the importation of three of Schleswig-Holstein' s most influential sires--the Thoroughbreds Cottage Son (a grandson) and Ladykiller (through his second dam), and later the Anglo Norman, Cor de la Bryere, by Rantzau (a great grandson of Son-in-Law). Corde's grandsire, Foxhunter (a grandson of Son-in-Law) also sired Hunters Moon IV, who sired Neji, a Champion Steeplechaser in the United States--proof that the genes for sport were still active within the line."


Son-in-Law son:
"Beau Pere was an immediate success, topping the leading sire list twice after just three seasons--including leading two-year-old sire with his first crop. He was then sold to Australia where he also became a leading sire for three more years in succession. Motion picture magnate Louis B. Mayer purchased him and exported him to California where he continued his tremendous career. Beau Pere's daughter Iron Reward became the dam of one of racing's most brilliant stars and California's favorite son, Swaps. Through his sons and daughters Beau Pere produced some of America's top show jumpers, including: Mary Chapot's Olympic Silver Medalist White Lightning (by Beau Pere' s grandson Grey Tower); Katie Monahan' s Encore, whose dam, Shirlee Steel is by the Beau Pere son, Polished Steel. (Shirlee Steel is also the dam of Kerry Millikin's Holsteiner mare, Landlady, who was recently short listed for the USET Three Day Pan Am Games Team of 1999). Beau Pere's son Doctrine sired Sundancer (a two time winner of the American Invitational) and his full brothers Easy Doc (a member of the Canadian Equestrian Team) and Turn on the Sun (a member of the British Equestrian Team). Doctrine's daughter, Mity Doc, produced the Oregon-bred international show jumpers Revlon Adam and his full brother, Mity Wind, who is now in Europe and licensed by Studbook Zangersheide.


Beau Pere's success as a sire of jumping horses is not surprising when one considers that his pedigree contains three crosses of Hampton. (Remember the little leading sire who began life as a hurdler?) Two of those crosses are through daughters of the important producer, Quiver--Maid Marian (dam of leading sire Polymelus) and La Fleche (winner of the One Thousand Guineas, Oaks, St. Leger, etc. and one of the fastest fillies ever to race in Great Britain)"

[Elles]

I was not only talking sporthorse lines but now we are at it: is Danzig something of a sporthorse line horse?

[Elles]

http://www.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/cgi/viewnews.pl?category=9&id=1167342628

www.greatsires.com.au/Beau%20Pere%20for%20printout.pdf

[Matchemforever]

I don't know much about Danzig or the current sires.

There is a site that lists the stallions and what they tend to throw but I can't find it right now. (Had a computer brain "malfunction" a while back and lost a bunch of sites I had saved)

Here's some other sites I ran across:

http://tinyurl.com/5krxmx

http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html

http://tinyurl.com/57p64r

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/articlesbloodlines.htm

http://tinyurl.com/6kvw4d


Maybe someone else will chime in here. If it's a matter of using the horse for sport, I think talent is where you find it, when you find it, and breeding may not come into play.

If you're looking at breeding sport horses, then it may help. Certain lines do tend to do better in sport.


Great piece on Beau Pere although I don't understand the comment about the withers- look fine in that picture. I do wish it hadn't been photoshopped.

[Matchemforever]

Another interesting site on TB lines in sport horses.

I am amazed that Man O' War's line still hangs in there, as old as it is now.

http://tinyurl.com/5pf25m