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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:22 pm 
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Excellent. Now all have to do is find my glasses.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:47 pm 
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http://www.rvc.ac.uk/sml/People/documen ... mation.pdf


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Shammy Davis wrote:
Pan Zareta: Yep, for what it is worth after a couple of years looking at you ranchers try to breed QH's, I decided to give up the Diet Cokes, the tin horn saloons, and the loud belching noises and head back east where I could recognize a horse without knowing the halter color. :wink:

To prevent anymore Diet Coke spilling to your keyboard, I will give you that using the term "inbreeding" related to the QH was a major error on my part. There is no more diverse breed genetically.

I should have said that to me they all look like they were inbred and color coding the halters was helpful to my Eastern eye. My experience w/QH breeders involved a great many halter class breeders. :roll: I guess they weren't real cowboys though their hats were definitely western. Thinking back to then TX wasn't top heavy w/real cowboys anymore either. The hats fooled us.


I would not be so quick to dismiss the idea in inbreeding ( linebreeding) with QH and its effect on herd diversity (or lack there of). While the QH has several distinct types these days, there has been a great deal of effort by major breeders to fix certain attributes into various QH lines. At the QH Congress a couple of years ago, I had the pleasure of listening to pleasure horse breeder Carol McWhirter http://danmcwhirter.com/home/ discuss a multi-generational breeding strategy to fix certain attributes the ranch's production. The working lines also tend to have a type, which was largely fixed by line breeding. In fact, many old timers claim to be able to pick out attributes which they assign to legendary sire lines. It is not unusual to hear someone talking about a "Hancock" eye or a "King" hip or neck. Who knows if there is anything to these observations but the horses do tend to fit a type. I suspect many of the large QH breeders in this part of the world tend to have captive mare populations which have been selected/developed to produce identified desired traits. This would lead to progeny with a similar look which would tend to reinforce the observations of Shammy. I believe TB breeders tend to maintain a more diverse broodmare band which would lead to more diverse production.

Chuck


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:11 am 
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This may be a chicken and egg sort of question.

The QH folks are selecting populations for a narrow range of abilities: Speed over 1/4 mile, cow working, halter. If there is a strong correlation between physical type, and the "job" it is pretty easy to select for that type.

TB breeders are presented with a different sort of challenge, they are breeding for racing success, which is a multi-factorial problem involving many different racing conditions and distances. So racing success is determined by the individual, not by a specific type. Much more difficult to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:12 am 
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The chicken or the egg is a good question. I've been recently re-reading Ed Bowen's AT THE WIRE. I was taken by the pictures and how horses of the 1900s thru 1930s had what we called the "slab" sided look even when in peak racing condition. Much like the picture of Domino on the Short Sprint thread. The evolution of TB from that day to what we see today is remarkable.

If you get a chance look at the horses like Equipoise, Twenty Grand, Exterminator, and Synsoby. WHIRLAWAY is pictured and I recognize him as the first to show more modern characteristics. Of course, you may want to ask is it the photo or the photographer.

Note the unremarkable heads on the earlier horses. Some are just plain ugly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:06 am 
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xfactor fan wrote:
This may be a chicken and egg sort of question.

The QH folks are selecting populations for a narrow range of abilities: Speed over 1/4 mile, cow working, halter. If there is a strong correlation between physical type, and the "job" it is pretty easy to select for that type.

TB breeders are presented with a different sort of challenge, they are breeding for racing success, which is a multi-factorial problem involving many different racing conditions and distances. So racing success is determined by the individual, not by a specific type. Much more difficult to do.


I was thinking along a similar line. QH's have a broader genetic base and a greater number of task specific types but within those types the selection pressure is very convergent. Halter horses, regardless of genetics will converge to the desired type. Racing QH's only race over a very narrow range of distances also forcing a convergence to type. Ranch horses are a different barrel and as PZ indicated there is little conformational selection pressure, the selection pressure is mostly on their brains. Good ranch horse sires however, seldom have much more than a local effect on the breed.

The selection pressure for TB's on the other hand is divergent. On one hand you have the very short races where TB's are racing at distances comparable to QH races. On the other hand you have races of 2miles and up which requires conformational attributes that are very different from sprint attributes. Given the narrow genetic base for the TB the same blood lines are often used for both extremes and additionally then you have the steeplechase and sporthorse breeders intermingling with the flat racing types. Perhaps, this is the reason for the perception that QH's are more set to type than the TB's, the TB base is simply too small for sub groups of type to develop and keep themselves separate from the breed as a whole.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:13 am 
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xfactor fan wrote:
This may be a chicken and egg sort of question.

The QH folks are selecting populations for a narrow range of abilities: Speed over 1/4 mile, cow working, halter. If there is a strong correlation between physical type, and the "job" it is pretty easy to select for that type.


As far as selecting for type, you hit the nail on the head. In fact, when the QH registry was in its infancy, type was everything as the candidate had to pass inspection to be registered. The founders had a definate idea as to what a QH was supposed to look like. One can only assume this ideal was based on an understanding of what traits were useful in a working ranch horse in the region where the QH association was founded (TX, OK, NM). As the breed has evolved and showing rather than ranching has become the driving force, the breed has diversified into several event specific sub-types,

Jim Goodhue, retired AQHA registrar, reviews the early history of the QH association and its registration policies in the Western Horseman publication LEGENDS - Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares by Diane C. Simmons with Pat Close.

Chuck


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:03 pm 
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Chuck, the point re. the captive mare bands is well taken. (Our home-breds all tail to the same 1938 model mare). But at sales (the last one I went to was the Caprock Ranchers' sale ~6 mos. ago) I can't say that I've seen quite the degree of uniformity in conformation, by breeder or by disclipline, that this thread suggests.

The earliest entrants in the AQHA registry were indeed defined strictly by type, and a majority of the committee had some degree of bias against racing Quarters and TB's. Did Mr. Goodhue mention that their exclusiveness led to the establishment of 2 major 'parallel' registries that were 'grandfathered' into the AQHA in the early 50's. That put considerably more TB blood into the QH, and diversified type to some extent across the board.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Pan Zareta,

Were the horses you looked at at the last auction "ranch" horses? If so it may be that the selection pressure for working ranch horses is quite a bit different than for racing ability. Selecting for behavioral traits such as "cow" or disposition are more important for a ranch than winning at halter or on the track.

From the QH ranch horses I've seen going through the auction ring, they look quite a bit different from the racehorses, being for the most part lighter through the body and not quite as bulky. In in the western pleasure show ring, there is quite a range of body types from the stocky "bulldog" type, to very TB looking horses. And of course a whole range in between.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:45 pm 
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xfactor fan wrote:
Pan Zareta,Were the horses you looked at at the last auction "ranch" horses? If so it may be that the selection pressure for working ranch horses is quite a bit different than for racing ability. Selecting for behavioral traits such as "cow" or disposition are more important for a ranch than winning at halter or on the track.


Yes, that auction is held by a collective of ranches that breed working horses to sell. But selection pressures for ranch work are not as different from those for racing as one might imagine. For both purposes good short speed is a sine qua non. Obviously most performance stock must have cow sense too, but that's not a trait in and of itself. It's a function of disposition and training. The best cowhorses, like many of the best racehorses, tend to be somewhat aggressive, assertive, dominant, or what have you. Fwiw, my oldest son's main ride comes from a tail female line that has produced winners on the track and in the arena (performance).

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From the QH ranch horses I've seen going through the auction ring, they look quite a bit different from the racehorses, being for the most part lighter through the body and not quite as bulky.


Spot on! Bulk is the main difference I notice, at least when comparing conformation between racing and performance sires.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:03 pm 
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As I said it has been sometime since I really looked at QH closely, but I thinking "down hill" conformation maybe more common than we might expect. I did a little research and much of the QH foundation appears to have that build. I just don't know whether it relates to performance. Training often encourages better performance, no matter what.

I don't get the "jack rabbit" analogy. that being said, I have read that PHAR LAP was in fact a bounder rather than a strider. Maybe his running style was analogous to the "Roo." He was bred in NZ though. Do they have "Roos" in NZ?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:43 am 
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I frequently re-read books on horseracing. The other night I picked up GRAVEYARD OF CHAMPIONS by Bill Heller.

There is a picture on Page 33 of MAN O'WAR and his connections that I had must have missed on previous readings. It stopped me in my tracks. All that is visible is a frontal shot of Big Red being held by a groom w/his connections to his left.

I know he is not standing for a conformation picture and he has his weight on his right fore, but what I see is a toed out, knock-kneed, narrow chested, Roman headed "great" racehorse. Even if the champion was not posed, he clearly had some conformation flaws that would make potential buyers at one of our contemporary auctions shiver in their paddock boots. My guess is that this was taken sometime during his 2yr old campaign.

If you have the book, check it out. I'd be interested in your thoughts.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:04 am 
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http://www.ker.com/library/EquineReview ... e/SU36.pdf


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:35 pm 
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 134032.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:27 am 
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http://www.agriscience.msu.edu/3000/318 ... /3189B.htm


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