when winning isn't fun

Mac · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: when winning isn't fun

hi everyone i haven't posted in a while just follow some of your posts and topics to help me learn. I try to buy a couple of horses every year at the yearling sales and race them, sometimes with partners and sometimes trying to afford it on my own if my partners can't afford to get in. Still pretty new at it, and this is my fifth year.

Here is what makes me a little sad. I can't ever seem to keep a horse more than 30 seconds. Meaning, if they run msw once or twice, then drop to a maiden $40k or a maiden $35k , they usually win but they are claimed. Over and over and over. My filly just won her third start two days ago, a maiden $35k, and I just sat there waiting in dread for my trainer to call me and tell me she was claimed. Of course she was claimed. I can't remember when i've really enjoyed winning a race last, this has happened so often.

Trainers have been great. They aren't trying to get my horses claimed. Plus a lot of times I've had horses claimed on a win and then been able to afford new yearlings and try again. I'm not discounting the benefits. But I've had horses claimed off me that went on to win a number of races and I didn't get to enjoy that part of their career, although to be fair to my trainers, none improved so much that they ended up winning higher than allowances. This filly might be different, I am a little worried she could improve a lot, but hopefully not enough to make me REALLY blue.

A light bulb did go off this time in my mind. I've let the trainers guide decisions without giving them more indications of my goals. So from now on, I'll tell a trainer to agree to giving me options of a softer tracks besides JUST the options of running for a tag, before I send a horse to that trainer. Most of my trainers HAVE had an easier track that they already stable at. Not their fault that I never stressed that I wanted such options. Plus I need to think before the horses leave the training track about checking to see where all the gorilla 2 or 3 year olds are showing up so I can send my horse to a track and trainer where the gorillas don't seem to be congregated.

Re-thinking my approach...and open to anyone else's experiences.

Mac Sad

Joltman · Grade III Winner Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 1109

Mac · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject:

thanks joltman

These specific trainers have given me reasons why they didn't need to try certain surfaces and distances, and I haven't seen them far wrong. i think my mistake is that several of my horses showed enough promise to the training farm that gave some indications of bigtime potential, so then i sought established trainers, who in turn after seeing horse gallop sent the horse to tougher tracks like Gulfstream in this last case. I never thought to give myself an out like asking for the option to get horse to easier track if the msw level proves challenging.

Frustrated!!!!!!

Joltman · Grade III Winner Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 1109

big time frustrated I bet.

To have a chance at a horse with some quality, maybe stakes caliber, slip away is not a desirable outcome. There have been many a decent Derby or Breeders Cup horse that has run in claiming events - trainers giving up essentially. Lucas got lucky when Charismatic almost won the Triple Crown but he had dropped him into a claimer and could have lost him. Tendency might be for the big stables, big time trainers to have less patience in this regard unless you were a top tier owner. Otherwise its drop, win and move on.

If your horses are at a training center, there may well be others to give you impressions about distance and surface. Maybe a breeze on the turf at least or a ship to a specialty meet like Atlantic City or Colonial? Sometimes running long then shortening up can really help a horse's development. Cigar's move to the dirt was not something that many trainers would have tried because he was 'bred for the turf', etc. etc. There are so many options. Some horses can win at 7f, but forget it at 6 or 8f. I would try lots of options. Then again the trainer may have another horse in mind and a vested interest for that MSW on the turf...

Ya know, it's your horse and you're the guy paying the bills.

jm
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Mac · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject:

well thanks joltman, i am getting un-naive fast. This last claim is the clincher. Filly finished in 23 and change, made nice move, she could be a decent sized fish at a littler track, though I think trainer is very sharp he'd never risked her if she was potentially a big fish in a big pond, but still from now on I will have had more options on the table. Time to quit crying. Concentrate on 2 yr olds now.

So if we have a nice horse at training farm that is working fast. Horse could be msw at a soft track all the way to graded at a major track. Unknown because this same farm had Rachel alexandra they knew she was nice but don't work them past half miles so hard to know how good. Is the best plan to run horse a few times somewhere easy, get an idea, before sending horse to established trainer.

Where is the rachhorseowner's manual on this stuff? But the way your reasoning is interesting...thanks

Joltman · Grade III Winner Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 1109

oh, and a couple other factors. Horses learn as they race. Once they win, some really figure it out and put mind to the task and utilize their natural gifts of speed or stamina and really improve. Depending the animal and the training regimen, most first couple of starts the horses are quite green and underperforming mentally. A win sometimes changes that.

Some trainers simply wait for other trainers to drop their horses into the claiming ranks and claim from them because they know they can improve them almost immediately. It would be interesting to follow the trajectories of those horses claimed from you to see what the claiming 'marketplace' says about them.

By the way, the claiming game goes both ways. Many trainers claim then drop further and win - some are almost unbeatable at this. BTW, you can get your horse back at a 'profit' some times. Assuming that nothing bad has happened in the meantime. If the new trainer goes up in class (especially one who is big time), then that says something different.

jm
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Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.

Mac · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:39 am Post subject:

This situation is fixed. Not buying and developing nice horses for other people's claiming trainers any more, since they cannot and will not leave me alone. Definitely wouldn't mind moving a horse along whose upside we have discovered and we are okay with it, but the next time an established trainer says "he/she shouldn't get claimed", my response will be "he/she WILL get claimed. I'm batting 1000. Every trainer who trains for me is batting 1000 on getting my horse claimed sooner than we'd like. Our other option is to move her/him to softer track. Where do you suggest?"

This is fixed.

Thanks for your input, Joltman.

LB · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:58 am Post subject:

Mac, it sounds to me like you need to make your needs known at little more strongly. Every time we've run a horse in a claiming race, our trainer has been very clear about how likely he thinks it is we'll lose them. If the odds are too high, we don't enter and try something else instead. Sometimes that's a different track, sometimes it's a higher tag.

If you are routinely losing horses you'd rather keep and your trainer never seems to see that coming, I would find that a concern on a couple of different levels. At the very least it doesn't sound as though he is looking out for your best interests very well.

Mac · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject:

LB you are right that I've been too reticent with my trainers. In this case it was bill mott. He didn't think the filly, mistie royale, would be claimed, and she wasn't a favorite, but of course I should have told him that the odds were 1000 to 1 she would be. We are talking about me here.

This last claim has given me a backbone. I like all my trainers and genuinely like bill mott, but softer tracks would be fine rather than lose a filly this early, who is improving.

I don't think there will be an issue with just moving a horse to a softer track from now on until i'm ready to lose the horse. My fault for being too optimistic that I can't be claimed off of EVERY time.

ct2346 · Starters Handicap Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 509

R -

Based on what I see - your filly is on her way to Arlington. Actually a sensible place for that pedigree....have you heard this? If she ends up there and you need someone to claim her back, let me know....

Good luck....

Mac · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject:

hi, yeah I think you are right, she is heading to Arlington was a rumor that I heard also. thanks for the offer...very much appreciated.

Blue feather · Allowance Winner Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 280

I believe LB hit it right on the head. It appears that you are on someones radar when it comes to potential claims. To have it happen over and over again is very concerning. I would be curious what the claiming rate is for horses dropping in for a tag for the first time. Whatever it is, it is likely not as high as what you are experiencing.

Mac · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject:

thanks blue feather and CT, it doesn't matter what trainer I use either and I've used three or four in different parts of the country, from southern california to the midwest. Not sure why, either, if the claiming trainers are never the same ones. Very confusing for me also.

I've got some two year olds coming along, and it won't be happening to them. They get a softer track if they have the ability to win at a decent level until we figure them out, and my training farm manager is getting so frustrated with me that he is offering to run them for me a few races if they seem really talented, around the Texas-Oklahoma-Oaklawn area, then we figure out what level of track they need. Too late for Mistie, but I may find a way to solve this problem.

Mac · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject:

To the point of my earlier post, I was claimed twice tonight. Horses ran first and second. At least in these cases horses ran for bottom level maiden claiming tags,and I was prepared to let them go, but still...its beyond unbelievable.

My trainers, none happy about being claimed, assured me that I am to be placed on all programs from hereon of horses whose owners feel are in need of being claimed.

Also, various partners and friends with racehorses have contacted me tonight and said same, that they too have horses who are in need of claiming. Would I agree to obtain licenses in those states and be on the programs?

I am a living legend.

clh · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject:

Perhaps you should develop another name and different silks to race under from now on Wink

. As LB said, I would question whether my trainer was being up front with me. They should know the odds of whether the horse was going to be picked up on that day or not. If however, you aren't sure about it, don't put them in a claimer, which is hard to do I know if the horse "has to" run.
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