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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:53 pm 
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bdw0617 wrote:
... in retrospect lukas running MTB in the firecracker is probably the stupidest training decision i have ever seen.


because?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:34 pm 
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for 2 reasons.


first, mine that bird has about the same chance of winning a turf race as i have winning a spelling bee. it's just not there in the pedigree. if i had to come up with a top 3 sires going right now for most non turf sires in america birdstone sticks out like a sore thumb.


secondly, because in running him in the firecracker, Lukas had 'determined" that the reason he was running poorly, or better stated, not winning, was because he needed a change of scenery as far as his races. However, if you look at his races and study them, he really wasn't running all that badly. He had a legit excuse in every race he ran in that he loss, he was made to run on a surface that he does not particularly care for, he had finished dead last in the previous year's race in the breeders cup over the surface and ran a respectable 6th in the breeders cup classic if I am not mistaken.

He did not need a change of surface, he needed 1. a class drop and 2. an actual training routine that was steady with a long term goal in mind. His assumption that he needed a change was wrong because he wasn't running bad actually.

In lukasmind, the only way that the derby winner does not complete with these horses is if something is wrong with the horse. nothing was wrong with him. in fact by November he had turned into a solid little handicap horse. But he did not have the talent to just be dominant like blame was the next year, and the horses around him got better.

so lukas takes him the next year, puts him on turf, puts blinkers on, hell even tries to gun him to the lead, when in reality nothing was wrong with him in first place. By the end of the year lukas had turned a respectable though not superstar quality dirt horse, into the punch line of a grade 1 joke. By the time of the JGCG it was "poor mine that bird". his demise was quite sad to me actually


what really peeves me about the whole thing is that, in that year, the game of horse racing had 2 things gift wrapped to them that would have seriously gone a long way to promote horse racing, like a solar eclipse; you had quite possibly the 2 best american mares in the last century going in the same year, and yet, somehow they managed to not run against each other. Also, you had a kentucky derby winner who was a gelding. in a game where we lose stars all the time to the stud farm, here you had a horse that if managed right, even if he wasn't rolling off grade 1's all the time, could still be running in high class races. MTB would be what, 5 this year? I think lol. 5 or 6. Having mine that bird show up in the oaklawn handicap or the big cap.. hell he would have won the big cap this year going away this pitiful group out there this year. all that ruined by a trainer who was more concerned about keeping his name in the paper than actually training his horse.


sorry that just really gets to me that hack job he did to MTB. The 800 pound gorilla in the room the entire year that year was that MTB.. just wasn't THAT good. he wasn't as good as zenyatta or rachel or quality road but he was still good enough run with the top dogs and every once in a while he will get his. If they just would have acknowledged that he would still be running today.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:49 pm 
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bdw0617 wrote:
first, mine that bird has about the same chance of winning a turf race as i have winning a spelling bee. it's just not there in the pedigree.


I'm not a fan of Lukas, but remember that the horse did win at Woodbine on the Faux Dirt TM, form which sometimes translates to turf (and vice versa).

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:27 pm 
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No chance there, then. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:16 am 
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BDW, that was a well-explained answer. Thanks. I liked MTB, too, and thought he could have been handled better.

However, what really got my attention was the mention of him running in the Firecracker. Last year I started watching Attempted Humor, because as well-bred as he is, he was pounding it out in low-level claimers. He ran in the Firecracker that year.

>>>>>>>


James Scatuorchio's Attempted Humor has never been off the board in five turf starts. The 5-year-old Distorted Humor colt has a pair of allowance wins on that surface, but will be making his first start since October, 2009, when runner-up at Keeneland. Corey Lanerie will be in the irons for Todd Pletcher.<<<<<<<<<<<

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... irecracker

Attempted Humor was a $ 500,000 Distorted Humor yearling with Eliza as his second dam. Love that.

Anyway, he came in two horses behind MTB in the Firecracker and three races later was claimed for $ 10,000 at Keenland. He went to LA and was claimed for $15,000, then finished up breaking down in a $4,000 claimer at Delta and was sold privately on the backside and the other day I saw that he's now standing at stud for $1,500.

Attempted Humor

Delta Downs 12/20/2011 5 Claiming 10
Delta Downs 11/22/2011 4 Claiming 1
Delta Downs 10/28/2011 7 Claiming 2
Delta Downs 3/13/2011 8 Allowance Optional Claiming 4
Fair Grounds 2/11/2011 8 Allowance Optional Claiming 5
Fair Grounds 1/30/2011 4 Claiming 2
Fair Grounds 1/8/2011 9 Claiming 5
Fair Grounds 12/19/2010 5 Claiming 2
Fair Grounds 11/25/2010 6 Claiming 8
Keeneland 10/21/2010 4 Claiming 1
Belmont Park 9/23/2010 6 Claiming 4
Saratoga 8/6/2010 8 John's Call Stakes 4
Churchill Downs 7/4/2010 10 Firecracker Handicap - Gr. 2 10
Keeneland 10/24/2009 8 Allowance 2
Santa Anita 2/22/2009 8 San Luis Obispo Handicap - Gr. 2 3
Santa Anita 1/18/2009 3 Allowance Optional Claiming 1
Keeneland 10/23/2008 6 Allowance 1
Arlington Park 9/6/2008 7 Honor Glide Stakes 2
Arlington Park 7/26/2008 1 Allowance 1
Arlington Park 6/28/2008 8 Maiden Special Weight 1
Arlington Park 6/7/2008 8 Maiden Special Weight 5

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:11 am 
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bdw0617

Mine That Bird went south long before Lukas had him. His win in the Kentucky Derby was more related to Calvin's ride than to any talent he may have had. At any rate, he did not win another race and he could only manage a 3rd in the West Virginia Derby, that should give you an idea of his true level of performance. I am not a Lukas fan, but Mine That Bird's lack of winning efforts is not because Lukas mismanaged him just to keep his name in the papers.

DDT


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:21 am 
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DDT wrote:
bdw0617

Mine That Bird went south long before Lukas had him. His win in the Kentucky Derby was more related to Calvin's ride than to any talent he may have had. At any rate, he did not win another race and he could only manage a 3rd in the West Virginia Derby, that should give you an idea of his true level of performance. I am not a Lukas fan, but Mine That Bird's lack of winning efforts is not because Lukas mismanaged him just to keep his name in the papers.

DDT


as stated he had an excuse in every last one of his loses. he had sugury after the WV derby. borel moved an 8th too soon in the belmont. in the good wood and the BC classic he was running on a surface he hated.


he was not "going south". he was mismanaged.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:39 am 
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You can use any and all excuses for his non winning after the Derby, fact is he did not win again, and that was his fault for not being fast enough or lucky enough to win, a loss is still a loss.

DDT


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:13 pm 
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bdw0617 wrote:
DDT wrote:
bdw0617

Mine That Bird went south long before Lukas had him. His win in the Kentucky Derby was more related to Calvin's ride than to any talent he may have had. At any rate, he did not win another race and he could only manage a 3rd in the West Virginia Derby, that should give you an idea of his true level of performance. I am not a Lukas fan, but Mine That Bird's lack of winning efforts is not because Lukas mismanaged him just to keep his name in the papers.

DDT


as stated he had an excuse in every last one of his loses. he had sugury after the WV derby. borel moved an 8th too soon in the belmont. in the good wood and the BC classic he was running on a surface he hated.


MTB was like a lot of horses, who have their own form cycle. The Triple Crown forces a different cycle on them and most horses have big trouble, running poorly. MTB was dead game in the Preakness and should have won it and as BDW notes, might have got the Belmont mile and a half with just a little more patience. Even so, wise trainers, after such a grueling run, make major changes/adjustments - even the BCup Classic should not be a given. Those that do work to bring them back into form,m gradually and are sensitive to it, can make a horse like MTB go a long, time, gamely. Maybe not the very top of the heap - but a worthy racehorse. Recall that Rachel cycled out and washed out after her glories.

jm


he was not "going south". he was mismanaged.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:25 am 
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Although I would agree that running him at 1 mile might have been "mismanagement" it certainly was not to get the trainer's name in the paper. Mine That Bird won his Canadian 2yr old championship racing on synthetic, I hardly think he hated the surface. When he faced major competition he had nothing for them except for the Triple Crown races. Did he manage to hold his form for 5 weeks or was he the best of his class, in my opinion he was lucky and he had no form when Lukas took over. It is easy to accuse the trainer of mismanagement when a horse does not win.

DDT


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