Throwbacks

vineyridge · Grade III Winner Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 1134

We've been having an interesting discussion on CoTH on TBs with dish faces, and wondering where they come from and if they are throwbacks to some ancient ancestor or if the dish face is fairly common in current TBs as a group.

Do y'all have any idea which lines are notable for dish faced TBs.

One of the horses mentioned as having a dish face is a bloody shouldered gray, and I am almost certain that is a throwback and is very rare today.

If color traits can pop up from the distant past, why can't other, more performance related, ones do so as well? To me that's an indication that you can't just focus on the most recent progentors, but are well advised to look back into more distant generations for possible traits that can be reproduced with linebreeding and deep pedigree evaluation.
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xfactor fan · Breeder's Cup Winner Joined: 16 Sep 2004 Posts: 2187

I guess the first question to ask is does anyone breed half arabs? And how does the head structure get passed on? Do half arabs have heads like an Arabian, or like the other parent?

The second answer is that unless a gene is culled it is almost impossible to completely remove it from the gene pool. If you look at conformation pictures of Arabs, Turks and Barbs, and some of the English pony breeds, you can find conformation similarities in the modern TB's And it would take a good eye for conformation, but it should be possible to produce a pure TB that looks like the ancestral stock.

ElPrado · Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:12 am Post subject:

I know I've seen many Tbreds that look like Turkmenes in their head structure, straight, look down their noses sort of heads. I've seen a few that look like Arabs. Blenheim II comes to mind. Barbs have a similar head structure to Turks, I think, fairly straight faced, not much dish at all. I'm thinking the Roman noses came from the British stock with some Barb thrown in. I really don't think that there is that much real Arab behind them. The Byerly Turk was just that, a Turk.

vineyridge · Grade III Winner Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 1134

the Darley Arabian came from Aleppo in Syria and could very well have come from desert stock or desert stock crosses.
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ElPrado · Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject:

Depends on which desert. Sahara, Arabia, Iran, don't connect for the most part.

Tappiano · Grade III Winner Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 1096

My mare has a head that when you look at it from the side some looks like she could be arabian. Let me see if I have one on this machine to share.

I used to ride this one horse who they said was an OTTB but I swore he was arabian as he not only had the dished head, but he floated when he trotted and had the tail extended the way arabians carry it.

ElPrado · Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject:

Also, it depends on which degree of dish you are talking about.
Some of the show Arabs now are just about deformed. No Arab before about 1970 looked like that. That is something American halter show breeders have done by selective breeding, the most extreme dish to most extreme dish, for a number of generations. They really don't have the nasal structure needed to work. They are good for floating across the show ring at a trot, next to a handler.

pedigreeann · Weanling Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 27 Location: Lexington

Cougar II (His Felinity, My Own True Love) had just a hint of a dish to his profile, and so did a few of his offspring that I saw at sales. His great-grandson Trippi looks on some photos like he has that hint of a dish as well.

Don't remember if he had a dished face, but Rare Brick (1983, won the Rebel at Oaklawn) ran with his head high in the air, almost horizontal, and his tail up like an Arab. Saw him run at Keeneland; most peculiar-running horse I ever saw, but he was fast. He won all 8 of his races but he never started in a graded race - ouchy feet, if I recall.
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Sylvie Hebert · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:03 am Post subject:

Horses with ouchy feet do run with their head higher,trying I guess to limit the weight or pounding.Look at those gaited horses with purposely sored feet
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ElPrado · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject:

Those purposely sored feet?

First, Saddlebreds are bred to do that, it's part of their physical make up. Their head carriage is actually hereditary. Second, they are trained to do that, using check reins. They do have longer feet, but that is to cause them to pick their feet up more, and the hooves are built up with pads, artificially, to square them up even more. Very few have sore feet.
Now, if you meant Walking Horses, yes, they used to sore the pasterns then use chains to irritate them more. I believe that is outlawed now. I've owned Walkers. You don't see the scars any more except on older horses no longer shown.

Tappiano · Grade III Winner Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 1096

Oh yeah.. BIG allegations
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/whistleblower-alleged-horse-torture-threatened-expulsion-breeders-group/story?id=16469193

Sylvie Hebert · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject:

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/may/31/0531-b1-many-top-walking-horse-trainers-have-been/

I said gaited horses not necessarily saddlebreds.I surfed the internet a bit and it seems they don't sore saddlebreds but walkers they do.But these extreme pads with freak angles on any bred would cause soreness and gait changes.
I do not have gaited horses ,only once ,took him out of Newholland and he had terrible feet and sore ankles,very damaged.He got sound enough to find a home after over a year.He was a very sweet animal.So my knowledge of gaited animals is pretty limited except for feet sore ones.I also had a nice pony horse that happened to be a gaited mule,but this one had great feet,no shoes.
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The sport and industry survive not only because of the champions that are remembered forever but also because of the losers that are so easy to forget...

ElPrado · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject:

The Walker I had was barefoot. He had a huge gait. He was a retired show horse. He had weighted shoes when I got him. I did not use chains, did not use pads, did not use shoes. He still could do a huge running walk. He could also rack and slow gait, the saddlebred show gaits for 5 gaited horses. One thing that would almost kill a rider was his trot. He could almost kill someone he hit the ground so hard.

pedigreeann · Weanling Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 27 Location: Lexington