Horse Slaughter, the next chapter - you should read this!

[KamiBrooks]

To all
I've been following along and it seems the theme should be that many on this topic simply want to tell others what they can and cant do. Or what they can raise or not raise. I guess to satisfy them we need to ask permission when ever we breed any horse any where, since most of us just aren't raising good enough horses. It is clear to me that many on this sublect do not know the facts. Opinions of those that do not own any horses should not control the opinions of those that own many. I am in an area thousands of miles from Canada and Mexico. I am involved in horse in just about every way and sadly adoptions donations and help are running out and horses are severly suffering. The new went away and our team is dwindling. Last winter we took in 200 and rented awesome green wheat pasture and treated them like kings only to find when they were fat and healthy no one wanted them for whatever reasons. neglect is rampant dont kid yourself. There are more horses by the thousands than people to save them. Love and cherish the babysitter or the great broodmare or old retired racehorse, but dont make someone have to feed the savage that no one can control or ride or the one that could flip and injure a rider. People that own horses should vote and you get a vote for each horse you own. If dont own any you dont vote at all. If you own 100 you get 100. I think then you would see the truth in all of this.

So why don't you just euthanize them? The cost of euth/disposal has to be cheaper than maintaining them for another 6 months through the winter? Why did you take on 200 horses in the first place? You say that you cannot sell these animals, so why do you continue to hold onto them and keep 'bleeding money' (as owners like to say)? Any dangerous horse could have been put down as soon as it was known they were dangerous (to humans or horses), why continue to feed them? No one is forced to keep a dangerous animal.

Why is it assumed that any one who is anti-slaughter is not a horse owner and that horse ownership would somehow make you wise enough to understand that (the inhumane process of) slaughter is a benifit? If you view it as a benifit, then why grumble about 200 horses? You could have availed yourself of Cavel's services all summer long and even scheduled private trucks for so many to get better than auction pricing.

All of American law is based on telling people what they can and can't do. I can't drive 90mph, take my neighbor's quad or even smack anoying kids. The anti-slaughter regulation does not restrict breeding in any way. Even licensing stallions (something I suggested) does not restrict breeding, only requires a fee that would discourage the casual breeder. The anti-slaughter regulation does not prevent you from selling or euthanizing your horses.

[BridledObsession]

Afterall the horse is what carried man to battle to home and through out history, thus branding it a noble benefactor for us. Plus it just would not have looked the same charging into battle on the back a swine or sheep. jm thoughts.

Very, very good point spex. Wish I would have thought of that!

[Cathyleabo]

The comment was made to the effect.that we can still kill our unwanted horses anyway we want to.
In Oregon you cannot bury livestock on your own property for fear of contaminating ground water sources. We have very few rendering plants anymore, so it can take literally weeks to get a carcass removed.
This is a problem so severe that our state government is (was) looking into ways to facilitate more rendering/pet food plants in our state.

But all we got this session was a state fruit.

[KamiBrooks]

Sorry, meant to say that you can do it in any way that is currently legal. Not in any way that you want. I think I did say 'any way legal' in a later post.

Disposal of large animal carcas is regulated in most areas. If you are near areas with dairy or beef farms, there are usually haulers or rendering plants who deal with large carcuses. In Ohio, you have 24 hours to deal with a large animal carcas. I know that composting is an option in Ohio, but you do need to read up on how to do it correctly. Extension offices usually have information on all the legal ways. Large animal vets usually have contact information for rendering and/or haulers.

Hope you have a good fruit, not something bland like an apple or orange.

[madelyn]

The comment was made to the effect.that we can still kill our unwanted horses anyway we want to.
In Oregon you cannot bury livestock on your own property for fear of contaminating ground water sources. We have very few rendering plants anymore, so it can take literally weeks to get a carcass removed.
This is a problem so severe that our state government is (was) looking into ways to facilitate more rendering/pet food plants in our state.

But all we got this session was a state fruit.

What's his name? The fruit I mean? Typical government, get to the unimportant stuff first and we'll deal with real issues if there is time.

I still contend that it was irresponsible and shortsighted to pass half-baked legislation to try to stop Europeans from eating horsemeat without establishing euthanasia stations in every state, complete with incinerators.

[luvthegame]

kammibrooks u are no where to be found when it comes time to take care of these unwanted horses and u have no logical clue how to fix the problem. You say euthanize or find a home hello You cant. What are you going to do with the animall wants its put down. You simply are turning an asset into something you have to pay to get rid of. Clearly you have never saved very many horses or your dedicated goal would be to find a solution not to stand on an anit- slaughter saying things that are just not true. You ask why I saved 200 horses. Because I have a passion for horse's that is deeper than any passion and you told me to put them down or sell them. Well thanks to you they where not worth anything and I could find enough people to adopt them and I will never pay to euthanize or get rid of my own asset. Thank for all you do

come up with a solution

[casallc]

Your link is bogus. Temple Grandin is an anti-slaughter activist. Hardly an objective source.

The Myth/Truth piece originated from a web site/organization originally registered to the attorney who was defending the Texas slaughter house. It has since been moved to a PR firm. So how is that any less "Bogus" or any more "objective"? Yet it is to be taken at face value as based on "facts" when none are given within the Myth/Truth.

The other parts are misleading, out of date or irrelevant.

Out of Date - and yet that link was writen in response to the Myth/Truth piece, so that tells everyone how old that piece is. Misleading/irrelevant - I have said the same about the Myth/Truth piece. I will support my claims over this weekend.

To, any that believe the Myth/Truth piece to be true/factual, I would enjoy reading any material or sources that you can provide that support the claims made in that piece. Point me to the evidence that the lack of slaughter (as opposed to the economics and mental health issues) has increased the number of neglect cases. Point me to where any government agency will be required to take ownership of any horse as a result of the lack of slaughter. Provide proof of any claim made in that document at all.

Despite that fact that the pro-slaughter have been crying that the horse market will bottom out, that has happened even with slaughter available.

(a) Fuel has increased the cost of everything from farm calls, to supplies (tack, equipment, et) to feed. Weather conditions have not favored forages. Available forages have been further stressed by increased requirements in states where blue toung has prevented the sale of many animals that would have moved futher down the production line forcing farms to feed animals that never planned on keeping. Feed crops prices are driven up by transport fees and the fact that they're being diverted to ethanol. We are now well into the standard fall 'culling' period. Breeders already have the 2008 crop on the way - despite all the evidence that its doesn't make sense (how many broodmares have you seen dumped?). With all those conditions, horse prices are going to fall no mater if slaughter is available or not.

(b) Breed specific breeders reduce the value of their own horses by over breeding and using poor quality animals. At one time the arabian was an extremely expensive breed. Massive breeding has corrupted the breed's original form and greatly reduced their overall value. I can get a registered trained egyptian arabian (that is actually a good example of the breed and under 10yo) at the sale for under $200 almost any week of the year. The Friesian was once an endangered breed and only available by import. There are now approved US stallions and massive numbers of non approved stallions standing in the US. What was once a $20k foal is now a $5k - $7k foal. The majority of QH and Paints in the US are valued at or below $750 (by the people who are selling them), so this is a good example of breeds who's price reflects how over populated they are. And then there are the grade hores ranging from sport horses to just plain never been registered. So the horse market is bottoming out by their own doing. Availability of slaughter is just a nice 'scape goat' for what will continue with or without the availability of slaughter.

Please refute the facts instead of trying to discredit the source. I really don't need any of your explainations of how the markets work, I'm sure I have a better grasp of market systems than you. (For your information I bought and sold Lasma East in 1999).

[KamiBrooks]

I did not say find a home, because you have already said that has failed.

I did provide a solution in humane euth. If you have animals that you cannot sell and cannot feed, euth is better than letting them beat the snot out of each other for too few scraps of food while they slowly starve to death.

I "specialize" in severly foundered horses who I bring back to a good quality of life then support until they no longer have a good quality of life. There is no real hope of 'adopting out' a horse that has foundered and penetrated on both fronts, no matter how sound they are and they often need special help durring the winters. Other at risk horses that come here are also permanent due to things like trauma/fear of people, back injury, severe neglect, etc, etc. Most had been rejected by publicly supported 'rescues' or were saved from the 'rescues' that were starving them. Other than that, I have an OTTB that is ready for a new home and a filly that will be ready in 2 years when she's been trained with a skill. I also network OTTBs needing home on the internet and to trainers in my area when I can.

I have a day job to support my farm. I am not a 'rescue' and do not get any public funds or donations. I do this out of my own pocket/time and balance it against the needs of my other horses (who are assets in a formal business plan). My most recent case is a 20yo draft w/30 degree rotation in both fronts. She has cost me well over $1000 so far (2 months) in diagnostics, supplies and medications to bring her back to comfort (this does not include basics/feed) and will continue to cost me an average of $5/day over basic needs until her feet are right (approx 9-15 mo). Then she will most likely stay here until her time on this earth is done.

Well thanks to you they where not worth anything and I could find enough people to adopt them

The truth is I have no idea of these horses and am not the reason they cannot be 'adopted'. It sounds like you simply made a bad investment in these assets. We all make mistakes. (The bigger mistake would be to have a herd of that size with in-tact stallions running in it to make even more.

The horses that come to me have never had any hope of re-sale value and never been an asset. Many would not even have been legal to transport to slaughter (not that that would have stopped them). I'm doing well if I can get them off the feed bill on a free lease for a few months to a light weight beginner. If I could find a good alternate home for any, I'd put them out on free-lease in a heart beat. Even though they've never had a financial value or been an 'asset', but they are valued members of their herds.

As a private individual, I am limited to my own funds and am careful to stay within them so that I do not have to watch my animals starve. All are fed, vetted, trimmed, etc as any other private horse would be. I do all the farm work w/o benifit of volunteers or donations. If something happened where my finances could no longer support these horses, they would be euthanized rather than risk being sent to slaughter or an under-funded rescue with poor conditions.

I am against slaughter because, despite regulations, the process is not humane (over crowded trucks, poor conditions at feed lots, untrained slaughter house workers, etc). You have a 'passion for horses' yet you appear to be FOR slaughter. Very confusing?

u are no where to be found when it comes time to take care of these unwanted horses and u have no logical clue how to fix the problem.

I eagerly await your ideas about solutions. Clearly slaughter (which has been and is still available) has not provided a solution to the problem of unwanted horses.

[ratherrapid]

it's good to read that you (K. Brooks)practice what you preach. yet, it's necessary to be logical. to say that you're against slaughter because it's inhumane misses the target. You're obviously in favor of euthenasia of neglect horses. So, you're "for" slaughter, but against inhumane slaughter.

Thus, instead of using your considerable energy in shutting down plants, it would seem so much more effect if this were channeled toward making the slaughter process humane. How stupid is it to send a message to the little granny in brooklyn watching things on "animal channel" that we need to close the plants because they're inhumane, and she dials up her congress person and demands action, and you leave so many horses who lack privy to such as yourself in that position?

If you're into farm animal welfare and against the deplorable practices that originate in our schools of agriculture "for profit"--and may there be a special place in hell reserved for them--it's necessary to quit blowing smoke and using junior high school debating points. So, which is it, are you against the slaughter or against the inhumanity. I see very little difference between slaughter plants and euthenasia stations. Same deal really.

[luvthegame]

I did not say find a home, because you have already said that has failed.

I did provide a solution in humane euth. If you have animals that you cannot sell and cannot feed, euth is better than letting them beat the snot out of each other for too few scraps of food while they slowly starve to death.

I "specialize" in severly foundered horses who I bring back to a good quality of life then support until they no longer have a good quality of life. There is no real hope of 'adopting out' a horse that has foundered and penetrated on both fronts, no matter how sound they are and they often need special help durring the winters. Other at risk horses that come here are also permanent due to things like trauma/fear of people, back injury, severe neglect, etc, etc. Most had been rejected by publicly supported 'rescues' or were saved from the 'rescues' that were starving them. Other than that, I have an OTTB that is ready for a new home and a filly that will be ready in 2 years when she's been trained with a skill. I also network OTTBs needing home on the internet and to trainers in my area when I can.

I have a day job to support my farm. I am not a 'rescue' and do not get any public funds or donations. I do this out of my own pocket/time and balance it against the needs of my other horses (who are assets in a formal business plan). My most recent case is a 20yo draft w/30 degree rotation in both fronts. She has cost me well over $1000 so far (2 months) in diagnostics, supplies and medications to bring her back to comfort (this does not include basics/feed) and will continue to cost me an average of $5/day over basic needs until her feet are right (approx 9-15 mo). Then she will most likely stay here until her time on this earth is done.

Well thanks to you they where not worth anything and I could find enough people to adopt them

The truth is I have no idea of these horses and am not the reason they cannot be 'adopted'. It sounds like you simply made a bad investment in these assets. We all make mistakes. (The bigger mistake would be to have a herd of that size with in-tact stallions running in it to make even more.

The horses that come to me have never had any hope of re-sale value and never been an asset. Many would not even have been legal to transport to slaughter (not that that would have stopped them). I'm doing well if I can get them off the feed bill on a free lease for a few months to a light weight beginner. If I could find a good alternate home for any, I'd put them out on free-lease in a heart beat. Even though they've never had a financial value or been an 'asset', but they are valued members of their herds.

As a private individual, I am limited to my own funds and am careful to stay within them so that I do not have to watch my animals starve. All are fed, vetted, trimmed, etc as any other private horse would be. I do all the farm work w/o benifit of volunteers or donations. If something happened where my finances could no longer support these horses, they would be euthanized rather than risk being sent to slaughter or an under-funded rescue with poor conditions.

I am against slaughter because, despite regulations, the process is not humane (over crowded trucks, poor conditions at feed lots, untrained slaughter house workers, etc). You have a 'passion for horses' yet you appear to be FOR slaughter. Very confusing?

u are no where to be found when it comes time to take care of these unwanted horses and u have no logical clue how to fix the problem.

I eagerly await your ideas about solutions. Clearly slaughter (which has been and is still available) has not provided a solution to the problem of unwanted horses.

[luvthegame]

You have finally proved that you actually do own a horse. I think it is great that you rescue foundered horses but you must be made of money to do it for no future plan for these horse's because you said yourself that they would not be worth anything. I will tell though I imagine that I have saved more horses in a month than you will save in a lifetime. I have not stated that I am for or against horse slaughter evan though you bash my input. The 200 horses that I rescued where not a bad investment as you say. Our local horse sales now have many horses that they cant evan get a bid on. Age, lameness, injurys evan size a part you have no clue about. Yes kb's will not take small horses colts or ponys so if noone at the autions wants them what then line em up and euthanize. Yes i am clearly heated I was on your side at one time But when exposed to the thousands of neglected horses and sickning situations I am convinced that anything that we can possibly do to make horses more valuable is what needs to be done. During my rescues my volunteers would start off like gang busters.. Then I need a week off or my hearts not in it anymore or this takes to much time, but the horses had to be cared for everyday. Dont get me wrong I have not given up on horses just people that do not have a plan on any of this.

[KamiBrooks]

it's good to read that you (K. Brooks)practice what you preach. yet, it's necessary to be logical. to say that you're against slaughter because it's inhumane misses the target. You're obviously in favor of euthenasia of neglect horses. So, you're "for" slaughter, but against inhumane slaughter.

It would be acurate to say that I am not against practices that are humane.

I view euthenasia as an injection of over dose of barbituates.

I view slaughter as the process from the collection point (auctions/feedlots) through death at a 'processing' plant. After the animal is dead you can do anything you want with it. You can eat it, wear it on your head or shove it up your petuty. I honestly don't care.

Thus, instead of using your considerable energy in shutting down plants, it would seem so much more effect if this were channeled toward making the slaughter process humane.

I agree. And if there were hope that the USDA, DOT and law enforcement would spend considerable resources on policing such a small segment, that would be the logical thing to do. Unfortunately, for all the noise spent on this topic, there are other more pressing issues fighting for these same resouces.

If you're into farm animal welfare and against the deplorable practices that originate in our schools of agriculture "for profit"--and may there be a special place in hell reserved for them--it's necessary to quit blowing smoke and using junior high school debating points.

I don't understand this statement.

I haven't said the agriculture for profit was deplorable. I have said that the contaminants and packaging through commercial slaughter plants are disgusting, but those are all issues after the point of death of the animal and not related to humane treatment. I don't care if other people choose to eat rotted meats contaminated with e-coli. I might not eat at their bar-b-ques, but I still go and have a good time (and don't discuss the topic).

I have said that I'm againsst NAIS, but that is because it is a 'big brother' that takes away my right to privacy and permits search and seizure without any warrants. So also not related to humane treatment. Many of my friend raise beef. Many have tried and thought better of polutry and pork. I am personally an omnivore. So the meats have to come from somewhere.

So, which is it, are you against the slaughter or against the inhumanity.

I'm against in-humane treatment of animals, even if that happens in a slaughter plant. I'm indifferent to humane slaughter and there are local slaughter shops that I am technically a customer of. I also allow hunting on my farm and assume those people do butcher and eat their catch.

I see very little difference between slaughter plants and euthenasia stations. Same deal really.

I DO see a difference between these two as described above.

I think state run euthenasia stations might not be as cost effective as having private rendering plants where the animal is put down on the farm then hauled. There are far fewer issues involved in transporting large animal carcas vs live animals. It would also involve far less stress on the animal. Even, if the states need to invest in attracting or establishing these businesses, there is a market for the products from these plants, so they might need the least subsidy from the state.

If the state were going to own/operate anything, they could do incineration (sp?) plants Some states already provide cremation through the ag department, I know VA recently increased their fees for horses and there was a lot of complaining over it.

States can also provide heavy equipment (from the DOT) for on-farm burrial at low or no cost. I think I've read about a county that provides this as a service.

States might also consider subsidizing vets for performing euthanasia where the vet does it for free to the client, then bills the state for a pre-set amount. If there were a stallion licensing program, fees/fines from that program could fund it.

[casallc]

You have finally proved that you actually do own a horse. I think it is great that you rescue foundered horses but you must be made of money to do it for no future plan for these horse's because you said yourself that they would not be worth anything. I will tell though I imagine that I have saved more horses in a month than you will save in a lifetime. I have not stated that I am for or against horse slaughter evan though you bash my input. The 200 horses that I rescued where not a bad investment as you say. Our local horse sales now have many horses that they cant evan get a bid on. Age, lameness, injurys evan size a part you have no clue about. Yes kb's will not take small horses colts or ponys so if noone at the autions wants them what then line em up and euthanize. Yes i am clearly heated I was on your side at one time But when exposed to the thousands of neglected horses and sickning situations I am convinced that anything that we can possibly do to make horses more valuable is what needs to be done. During my rescues my volunteers would start off like gang busters.. Then I need a week off or my hearts not in it anymore or this takes to much time, but the horses had to be cared for everyday. Dont get me wrong I have not given up on horses just people that do not have a plan on any of this.

The best plan would be to cut the hyperbole and insure the best USDA kill plants possible. It is insane to think all surplus horses can be adopted and just as insane to think that euthanasia is the answer. Horses are livestock and the surplus serves a valuable product to zoos and provides jobs and a needed trade balance with other countries. People need to get over the hysterics and admit their "solution" is foolish. I see the results now, so-called rescuers that are actually hoarders snatching up cheap and unwanted horses and expecting them to survive in a patch of weeds. They are getting poor now, wait till winter when they cant afford feed. There is nothing sadder than a starving horse - not even a slaughter house.

[summerhorse]

it's good to read that you (K. Brooks)practice what you preach. yet, it's necessary to be logical. to say that you're against slaughter because it's inhumane misses the target. You're obviously in favor of euthenasia of neglect horses. So, you're "for" slaughter, but against inhumane slaughter.

It would be acurate to say that I am not against practices that are humane.

I view euthenasia as an injection of over dose of barbituates.

I view slaughter as the process from the collection point (auctions/feedlots) through death at a 'processing' plant. After the animal is dead you can do anything you want with it. You can eat it, wear it on your head or shove it up your petuty. I honestly don't care.

Thus, instead of using your considerable energy in shutting down plants, it would seem so much more effect if this were channeled toward making the slaughter process humane.

I agree. And if there were hope that the USDA, DOT and law enforcement would spend considerable resources on policing such a small segment, that would be the logical thing to do. Unfortunately, for all the noise spent on this topic, there are other more pressing issues fighting for these same resouces.

If you're into farm animal welfare and against the deplorable practices that originate in our schools of agriculture "for profit"--and may there be a special place in hell reserved for them--it's necessary to quit blowing smoke and using junior high school debating points.

I don't understand this statement.

I haven't said the agriculture for profit was deplorable. I have said that the contaminants and packaging through commercial slaughter plants are disgusting, but those are all issues after the point of death of the animal and not related to humane treatment. I don't care if other people choose to eat rotted meats contaminated with e-coli. I might not eat at their bar-b-ques, but I still go and have a good time (and don't discuss the topic).

I have said that I'm againsst NAIS, but that is because it is a 'big brother' that takes away my right to privacy and permits search and seizure without any warrants. So also not related to humane treatment. Many of my friend raise beef. Many have tried and thought better of polutry and pork. I am personally an omnivore. So the meats have to come from somewhere.

So, which is it, are you against the slaughter or against the inhumanity.

I'm against in-humane treatment of animals, even if that happens in a slaughter plant. I'm indifferent to humane slaughter and there are local slaughter shops that I am technically a customer of. I also allow hunting on my farm and assume those people do butcher and eat their catch.

I see very little difference between slaughter plants and euthenasia stations. Same deal really.

I DO see a difference between these two as described above.

I think state run euthenasia stations might not be as cost effective as having private rendering plants where the animal is put down on the farm then hauled. There are far fewer issues involved in transporting large animal carcas vs live animals. It would also involve far less stress on the animal. Even, if the states need to invest in attracting or establishing these businesses, there is a market for the products from these plants, so they might need the least subsidy from the state.

If the state were going to own/operate anything, they could do incineration (sp?) plants Some states already provide cremation through the ag department, I know VA recently increased their fees for horses and there was a lot of complaining over it.

States can also provide heavy equipment (from the DOT) for on-farm burrial at low or no cost. I think I've read about a county that provides this as a service.

States might also consider subsidizing vets for performing euthanasia where the vet does it for free to the client, then bills the state for a pre-set amount. If there were a stallion licensing program, fees/fines from that program could fund it.

I'll just say Ditto!

And for those who keep quoting Temple Grandin please remember she is an expert of livestock (cattle, sheep, etc) but knows pretty much NOTHING about horses!

[summerhorse]

It is no illegal to bury carcasses in OR. There are guidelines to follow as well as many other options. http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/NRD/docs/pdf/ ... ispose.pdf

Anybody needing to know their local rules need only use Google or check your local county or city ordinances.

Search State and/or city + "carcass disposal"