Improving the Daily Racing Form

[patrick]

I think the DRF has done a great job at providing additional useful information. A great possible addition could be adding RNA numbers to runners. For example, last night at Indiana Downs a horse named Ladystarturengine (an Indiana bred) raced in a MSW for filly 2YO's.

She RNA'd at the OBS 2YO in training sale for $70,000. Had she SOLD for 70K that number would have shown (as well as the name of the sale) and people would have known she had some talent. But the owner ( I think wisely) did not sell her for 70K.

So the form did not show the sale or RNA and she went off at long odds. She ran 3 to 4 wide around the turn and was a close second earning a Beyer fig of 45.

I think adding RNA amounts to the DRF rather than sales only amounts would help people to make better wagering decisions.

I am also surprised to see the stud fees often absent for sires. It seems somewhat hit or miss and even though I follow the game fairly close I can't remember them all.

Finally, adding the stud fee for the broodmare sire would help in identifying class.

Am I wrong.

[ElPrado]

You're living in an era where the trend is to tell you less, not more. Blood Horse dumped most of their writers and barely touches stakes results any more. It used to give stats on money earned for several categories. You're lucky if you see a page for stallion rankings at all. There are half as many articles in DRF as there used to be.

[casallc]

RNA means nothing, actual sale price means little more and stud fee has scant relevance. Top sellers normally NEVER return their purchase price. Anyone who would use marketing sales numbers to handicap is as clueless as those who still use dosage numbers. Think Green Monkey.

[Fireslam]

As casallc said, rnas mean nothing. Thats just how high either the consigner or the sales company was running up the bid. You're assuming the last live bid was $70,000. The last live bid could have been $10,000. Might not have even had a live bid. A horse is worth what someone is willing to give for it, not what the owner wants for it. As has been said, nothing enhances the value of a horse more than owning it.

[ageecee]

You mean to tell me that a horses RNA and what price the RNS is going to determine wether you bet the horse or not?



RNA has no business in the daily racing form just my opinion.

[patrick]

casallc you and the others might be right with regard to horses offered as weanlings or yearlings. I should have been more specific.

2YO sales numbers mean alot. You don't takea horse to a 2YO sale and RNA it just for the heck of it. It is expensive to get a horse to one of those sales so you don't just take a horse there for fun.

You also don't put out a goofy reserve price on it because you have to pay commission on the price. Are prices screwed around with sometimes, well duh, what isn't in this game.

Yearling sales prices mean zero after 2 races.

[casallc]

casallc you and the others might be right with regard to horses offered as weanlings or yearlings. I should have been more specific.

2YO sales numbers mean alot. You don't takea horse to a 2YO sale and RNA it just for the heck of it. It is expensive to get a horse to one of those sales so you don't just take a horse there for fun.

You also don't put out a goofy reserve price on it because you have to pay commission on the price. Are prices screwed around with sometimes, well duh, what isn't in this game.

Yearling sales prices mean zero after 2 races.

As I said, think Green Monkey then get back to me. If they meant a lot they would be included as information to handicappers. Obviously you are the only one that thinks so.

[Fireslam]

casallc you and the others might be right with regard to horses offered as weanlings or yearlings. I should have been more specific.

2YO sales numbers mean alot. You don't takea horse to a 2YO sale and RNA it just for the heck of it. It is expensive to get a horse to one of those sales so you don't just take a horse there for fun.

You also don't put out a goofy reserve price on it because you have to pay commission on the price. Are prices screwed around with sometimes, well duh, what isn't in this game.

Yearling sales prices mean zero after 2 races.

You arent getting it. Horses are RNA'ed because theres no live money on it. Just because you spend a lot of money to get a horse to a sale, doesnt mean you'll sell it. Apparently that person wanted x amount of money for that horse, and no one bid that amount. There might not have even been a live bid for half that amount. So no, 2yo RNA sales numbers mean zip.

[patrick]

Horses are not RNA'd because there is NO live money on them, they just don't have an amount bid on them to meet the minimum a seller wants. In the instance I sited, the last live money bid was 68,000.

I suspect that the difference between us is that I have participated in 2YO sales and you have not.

[Fireslam]

Ill rephrase that. Horses are RNA'd because the last live bid is not enough for the owner to accept. It can be $2000 under the last RNA bid, or $20,000. Now this whole post makes no sense, if you say that you know the last live bid was $68,000, what exactly is your gambling point? If you know what the last bid was, and you know you think she can run a little, and you got a good price at the windows, exactly what is your point?

Apparently you are the breeder?

And I guarantee you I have run more 2 year olds thru the sales than you have.

The point being, RNA price indicates nothing.

[patrick]

You are correct I was the breeder and the horse went off at 25-1 and that was good.

Okay.

So there is a 10 horse field. Every horse in the race happened to be in an early OBS sale. Each horse is by the same sire. 9 of the horses RNA'd for $2,000 and one of the horses RNA'd for $1,000,000.

Each horse has the same odds.

No other information is available for you.

Assuming all the horses have the same odds would you really tell me that you would not bet on the $1,000,000 RNA?

[madelyn]

I lean toward agreeing with the "RNA is meaningless" crowd, from a handicapping standpoint.

From another standpoint, an RNA is equally meaningless in establishing a horse's value, while a SALES PRICE does count. I am a certified equine appraiser (ASEA) and we DO take sales prices into account, as well as stud fees, in establishing a horse's value. We do NOT take RNA numbers.

[patrick]

Madelyn,

I am surprised to hear you say that you do take sales prices into account but do NOT take RNA numers into account. Weanling and Yearling prices are mostly based on confirmation, the sires stud fee, and the success of siblings. Its very much a crap shoot. Look at the Green Monkey as was mentioned before.

2YO old sales are based largely on a different measure - how fast can the horse run and how fluid is his action. It is a far better test than looks or class and is the reason that (unless its recently changed) the FL 2YO sale is the only sale whose horses sold exceed thier cost.

I'll ask you the same question. If 9 of 10 horses RNA for 2,000 and one RNA's for $1,000,000 would you not expect more from the $1,000,000 horse?

[bayrabicano]

I'll ask you the same question. If 9 of 10 horses RNA for 2,000 and one RNA's for $1,000,000 would you not expect more from the $1,000,000 horse?

That makes it even more reason not to do it. Just because you expect more clearly doesn't mean you would get it. So what exactly would be the point? If the RNA would change the value then folks would RNA for the wrong reason and everything would get even worse.

[casallc]

Madelyn,

I am surprised to hear you say that you do take sales prices into account but do NOT take RNA numers into account. Weanling and Yearling prices are mostly based on confirmation, the sires stud fee, and the success of siblings. Its very much a crap shoot. Look at the Green Monkey as was mentioned before.

2YO old sales are based largely on a different measure - how fast can the horse run and how fluid is his action. It is a far better test than looks or class and is the reason that (unless its recently changed) the FL 2YO sale is the only sale whose horses sold exceed thier cost.

I'll ask you the same question. If 9 of 10 horses RNA for 2,000 and one RNA's for $1,000,000 would you not expect more from the $1,000,000 horse?

It is very simple. The value of ANYTHING is established not by what someone wants or thinks the value is but what someone has paid for it in the past. Your home's assessed value is based upon actual sales of like properties in the same area - the same way the NADA establishes values used by lending institutions for automobile values - by actual dealer’s auction SELLING prices. These values are only guidelines to be used with expert knowledge of the product and market. When you really get down to it, the value of any horse lies in what it will weigh, multiplied by the current price per pound for horse meat. If the DRF would print the weight of the horse it would have as much or more relevance as RNA figures.