Many Warren's TB horses in feedlot in AZ

[Marli]

Vineyridge,

TRF- I contacted them first thing yesterday morning after reading about this situation but haven't heard back. I would hope that if there's any assistance that org., could provide they'd contact Priscilla directly as all the peritinent info was included. I left Caroline know right after I sent the email. Everyone's very busy and emails/phones are tied up but I think if they'd have heard we'd know by now - or soon.....

[Sysonby]

But then you have to wonder about the human psychology? If there is an organized government or JC program, what will happen to individual responsibility from those who now do feel responsible.?

And there is a serious ethical question to be asked....some of us in California have been watching this irresponsible breeding program for literally years. What happened recently was completely predictable when you breed multitudes of $500 mares to $200 studs and getting bunches of horses that can't run. I wouldn't be shocked if this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Why should breeders who put as much money as they can budget into producing and raising the best quality animal they can pay for this? Why should a breeder in Ohio or Kentucky or Florida pay for this? Why should anyone who had nothing to do with this disaster be compelled to clean it up and pay for it? Especially when scads of their own money is used to keeping their own house in order.

Should all horse owners pay a yearly stipend for unwanted horses? Because there are way more out there than originated at Warren's TBs and if we are all going to be our brother's keepers perhaps recreational and pet horse owners should be compelled to get involved as well.

Besides, although it seems like a nice gesture to fund "retirement", what does that really mean? Who gets the money and for what?

[Cree]

I will never understand why that farm was standing TWENTY-FIVE stallions. Over breeding much?

[NorthStar]

Why should breeders who put as much money as they can budget into producing and raising the best quality animal they can pay for this? Why should a breeder in Ohio or Kentucky or Florida pay for this? Why should anyone who had nothing to do with this disaster be compelled to clean it up and pay for it? Especially when scads of their own money is used to keeping their own house in order.

Why do people who don't have kids have to pay property taxes for schools or any other society benefit not specifically benefitting the taxpayer?

Is horse racing and the income and jobs it generates not a benefit to society? Don't politicians pass bills to fund breeding incentives and initiatives to make the profitability of racing better?

In general, we are all responsible to see to it society doesn't turn its back while things like this go on. Does an oil company that dumps oil in the ocean, not have to clean it up? Breeders and owners of TB dump them into the unwanted horse system, when they are no longer useful.

As for $500 mares bred to $200 stallions, I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, that needs to be resolved in another manner. The industry can likely make great strides do away with such breedings via a surcharge just like the one suggested previously for all stallions and mares.

It seems somewhat ironic that the TB sales have no problem assigning a standard regarding which horses can or cannot be entered in the sales, yet the industry won't pass standards as to a certain level or quality of stallion being allowed to stand stud and its progeny allowed to be registered with the JC. Without the cheap stallion, the mares won't be in foal, unless the mare owner is willing to pay much higher stud fees to breed to an allegedly higher quality animal.

Maybe there should be a minimum $5,000 stud fee and if a stallion cannot draw mares for that fee, that pretty much says he cannot pass the minimum standard to be registered as a TB. That should discourage a lot of breeders that either don't know any better or are too dumb to learn in the first place. Just like setting a $100 minimum at a gambling table, it would discourage those that really cannot afford to be there, and probably do them a favor.

No one has to be in this business. If breeders and owners cannot afford to be responsible to budget a nominal fee to help prevent things like this, that isn't a very flattering or promising picture of the state of the TB racing industry then, is it?

[nferro9925]

Channel 5 KPHO in Phoenix just ran a short story about the horses on the 10PM news cast tonight. They also showed one horse rescue group in Phoenix area Luv Shack Ranch that is trying to help save them.
They showed the some horses that did look in good condition. Which also means they are not going to be cheap at auction.

Anyway, they had the story - but no mention of HOW to donate to help them, no mention of other groups (ie: Tranquility), no phone numbers, nothing.

They also had a short segement with the current guy who is sending them to a "feedlot", not a "slaughterhouse" accordng to the guy. His kids were even hanging on the fence while the cameras were rolling.
Does he think he'll get sympathy from those who know feedlot often equals slaughterhouse??

[docjocoy]

Do we have an update on Seattle Bound?

[vineyridge]

Doesn't "feedlot" by definition mean headed for slaughter?

[majxmom]

Do we have an update on Seattle Bound?

The only update is grim. Apparently he is not a stallion that is safe and easy to be around. That certainly reduces the number of options he has.

[zinn21]

Below is a quote and link to a story on this thread's horses from Bloodhorse.com. There seems to be positive report on the condition of said horses per the following eyewitness report.

"A trainer in Arizona, working with Tranquility, inspected the animals and told Clark that they are all in good condition"

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/46416.htm

[Sock Monkey]

It seems somewhat ironic that the TB sales have no problem assigning a standard regarding which horses can or cannot be entered in the sales, yet the industry won't pass standards as to a certain level or quality of stallion being allowed to stand stud and its progeny allowed to be registered with the JC.

What standard for sales are you talking about? Are you thinking about select sales? If you don't make the select sale, the sales companies will allow you to enter the general sale.

The problem I have with what NorthStar is saying is that it's too hard to define quality. Lots and lots and lots of good racehorses are by cheap stallions out of cheap mares. And, conversely there are lots of useless horses by expensive stallions out of wonderful blacktype mares. And, there are numerous examples of horses who sired nothing much until late in their career (Boundary, sire of Big Brown for example) or mares that produced little until they were older (Kostroma - dam of Ariege).

There is no formula for breeding a good racehorse, although people on places like this forum seem to think there is. So, to say only stallions that are worth x or have raced y times or look like z can be bred really doesn't make much sense.

Besides, although it seems like a nice gesture to fund "retirement", what does that really mean? Who gets the money and for what?

Exactly, Sysonby!

Why should I, as a breeder and owner who spends the money to "do right" by my own horses be forced to take care of someone else's horses in a manner that suits the PETA crowd?

[Laurierace]

The reason we should all contribute to take care of the horses we create is by sharing the burden amongst everyone, the amount per person is lessened greatly. I have spent the majority of my adult life spending my own money to bail out other people horses when they dropped the ball. Its not the horse's fault his owner or breeder is an asshat, so I do what I can to help them but I sure could use some help in the form of mandatory contributions.

[majxmom]

A few years ago I was reading in the last page of the Thoroughbred Times, the retrospective section about what happened 25, 50, 75, and 100 years ago that week. There was a story in the 100 years ago, I think, about a stallion who had won the Champagne Stakes in his career, but who had been a failed stud. He was entered into a sale as an older stallion, and a groom for the farm that raced him saw him pass out of the sale without a bid. He went back to the farm owners and told them that the old stallion was there. They told the groom to go back to the auction and buy him and bring him home for retirement. The groom returned to the sale, but there was a Jockey Club rule at the time that said that any horse who failed to draw a bid at a TB sale must have his papers cancelled. The horse, having had his papers cancelled and therefore having minimal value, had already been taken to a processing plant and was slaughtered, only a few hours after he had passed through the first sale.

I'm afraid that if we start declaring that horses can only be bred if they pass over a certain arbitrary figure of earnings, or if we place a "tax" on them to breed, that there will be more unwanted horses, not less. Sock Monkey makes a good point that a bureaucracy cannot be counted on to maximize efforts toward retirement, but individual efforts have been coming up embarrasingly empty lately.

I prefer an approach like Staci Hancock invented in KY. I would like to have a CA Equine Humane Center here. They could accept EVERY unwanted horse without discussion. Then, unfortunately, tough decisions would have to be made about who is adoptable and who must be euthanized, like for dogs and cats. They could make outreach efforts to adopt out TB horses for sport rather than have these rich housewives buy imported warmbloods. But no horses would wind up in dire circumstances. I have no objection to them being dead. My objection is that the noble horse, who changed civilization for man, should not be tossed away like garbage, mistreated and terrorized, in its last days.

[Sock Monkey]

I have spent the majority of my adult life spending my own money to bail out other people horses when they dropped the ball. Its not the horse's fault his owner or breeder is an asshat, so I do what I can to help them but I sure could use some help in the form of mandatory contributions.

But, that's your choice to take care of them in a way that you find appropriate. Warren's probably thinks the way they've been dealing with culls is appropriate and what you do is overkill.

I'm not heartless - I've spent a ridiculous amount of money retraining and rehoming my own and have taken in waaayyy to many charity cases (I have several on my farm right now). But, I am still adamantly opposed to mandatory retirement funding - for just the reasons Sysonby said so well.

[Laurierace]

I don't think adding $50 onto the cost of the registration to make sure there are funds to give the horse's a humane death is going to break anybody, but it sure would make a big difference to the horse.

[BridledObsession]

I am taxed for so many darn things at this point -- I don't even know where half of my hard earned money goes. And, as someone else mentioned earlier, we all pay school taxes regardless -- and my kids go to private school, so I'm getting hit twice!!! For once, I'd would not mind contributing a cause I believe in and that manages/oversees/cares for retired race horses. It's just a job that needs done. I live pay check to to pay check at this point while struggling through my divorce, but I promise you I would not miss $20 (for example) taken out for my winnings as a donation to a fund. On top of giving these horses the chance they deserve, I believe it really would provide a service for anyone looking for a riding horse or broodmare.

If we do it for dogs and cats, why not horses?