Gato Negro--what color is he? Black horses...

[jellac]

FYI -
The link to Japanese stallions that was just posted on another thread this forum today features three stallions that definitely are "true" blacks - no matter what their registration might say - plus Sunday Silence, who not surprisingly features in at least one of the other stallions' pedigrees. The stallions I recall as being "black" are: Fuji Kisei (or Kesei?), Manhattan Cafe, and another one...whose name I can't recall just now.

Also on the Canter site (for either Ohio or Illinois) there is a lovely - albeit only 14.3HH - tb filly name of "Teachem Kelli" (or Teachm Kelli) that is also clearly a true black.

Not sure if this one qualifies or not: My mare, Noon Time Dora, may not be registered as a black, but she has black skin about her muzzle and the thin stretch of skin and coat between her hindquarters and belly, the eye surround area, etc. - in the middle of our incredibally hot Texas' summer she stands out as a midnight black mare in a sea of brown mares - although, eventually she'll be a sort of sun-bleached 'bronzish' color on the tips of her coat.....always she's black underneath.

[jellac]

Don't know how far back in time you want to go with your research on true black thoroughbreds, but found this while researching another pedigree:

BRADAMANTE (blk f 1861 VOLTIGEUR) - winner of the Nassau Stakes 2011m=10f at Goodwood, Eng. AND a full sister to SPECULUM.

[jellac]

And another, more recent in history:

BLACK SERVANT, listed this site as a "black" son of BLACK TONEY - and looking the part in accompanying photo but it is a B&W photo. Below is his record as shown on this site:

22 Starts: 7 - 7 - 2, $31,325

At 2: 2nd Cincinnati Trophy; 3rd United States Hotel S.

At 3: Won Blue Grass S., Proctor Knott H., Thoroughbred Record H.; 2nd Kentucky Derby, Devonshire International, Latonia Championship S.

[jellac]

BLACK TONEY who was not black sired several sons listed as black including at least four (indicated below w/ and *) that in turn were used at stud:

Balladier*
Beggarboy*
Black Gold
Bewithus*
Blackwood*
Hope To Do
Master Toney

I've embolded the ones that jump out from this list but would also note that many of his sons' daughters are also shown as being black.

OF those sons listed above BALLADIER gave us two outstanding non-black sires: DOUBLE JAY and SPY SONG....

[skeenan]

FYI -
she stands out as a midnight black mare in a sea of brown mares - although, eventually she'll be a sort of sun-bleached 'bronzish' color on the tips of her coat.....always she's black underneath.

I just read an article on Morgan coloring and the genetics behind it- they have a color they term "black bay"- the horse appears black, but the coat has undertones of red, therefore bleaches out reddish in the sun. They said a true black coat won't (genetically speaking). I just tried finding it again, but I think I saw it in an old Equine Journal (as it was being torn up for wood stove fodder). I did find some interesting info at this link:

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html

It's the UC Davis/Veterinary Genetics Laboratory.
And here's another link from that site:

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html

---edit---

I was looking on CANTER Penn and found this "black" TB- I think he looks like a "black bay" to me- I can see the red cast to his color, and his lower legs look more black than the rest of his coat... what do you think?

http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/CheckByCheck-1.jpg

[haemju]

Yeah, That boy I believe is check by check. I posted his info on another site and it was agreed that he looked like a true black. We.....general consensus decided that VooDoo Valentine, also listed on CanterPA was a dark bay even though she is listed as black.

[Sunday Silence]

Darnit--came across the names of two horses running at Tampa Bay on the 28th--Jet Black Magic and Coal Black Rose. To my disappointment, they turned out to be registered dark bay.

[halfpint23]

We have a black (registered as black with Jockey Club) four year filly, see pics on our website on the Sale Horses page. She's an Airdrie Apache x Irish Tower mare, Dalene Knight is the breeder. This girl is tall, pretty, and has about a half dozen white hairs - half on her forehead and half on a heel behind.

As for the summer sun fade - we fed her a bit of paprika in her feed last summer, and she stayed MUCH blacker than the summer before, when fly wipe produces odd reddish faded spots..... Her winter coat is so black it soaks up all available light!

[Nerd]

Somebody asked about the genetics behind 'black' horses. Here's my crappy explanation of the accepted theory on the matter:

Base coat color in horses is mainly determined by two genes. The first gene, or 'extension' locus gene, governs what color pigments the horse can produce (red or black). The second, or 'agouti' locus gene, governs the distribution of black pigment.

Horses produce two basic types of pigment. One is roughly black, and the other is roughly red. Coat colors that involve black (bay, brown, dark bay/brown, black) require the ability to produce black pigment. If no black pigment is produced, the horse is chestnut.

We call the 'gene' to make black pigment E, and its counterpart (the corresponding allele that doesn't produce black pigment) e. You can think of the extension locus as the piece of the horse's genetic instructions that teaches it how to make black pigment. E contains 'good' instructions for making black pigment, while e contains faulty instructions that result in not being able to make black pigment.

Each horse has two copies. If it has two E alleles (EE), both copies can produce black pigment, so the horse will have some black hairs somewhere. If it has one copy of E and another of e (Ee), the e allele won't produce black, but the E allele will, so the horse will have black hairs. If the horse has two copies of e (ee), neither copy will be able to produce black hairs, so the horse will be chestnut.

The agouti gene determines how those black hairs are distrubuted. The dominant, and most common (in TBs) form of this gene is called 'A.' A sequesters the black pigment to the points of the horse, making it bay. A is also found in brown and dark bay/brown horses, although the mechanism for why they are darker is not entirely known. The alternative allele is 'a' which lets the black hairs be everywhere all over the horse's body, leading to what we call 'black.' A is dominant to a, so if a horse has one copy of A and one copy of a (Aa), the A allele will force the pigment into the points, causing the horse to be bay (or br or dkb/br). The horse must have only a (aa) to be black.

So for a thoroughbred to be black, two conditions must be met: it must have the ability to produce black pigment (EE or Ee) and it must let that pigment be expressed all over its coat (aa). Ie, all black horses are either EEaa or Eeaa.

The first condition is easy to meet. The amounts of E and e in the TB gene pool are roughly equal, so since every horse has two copies, the chance of any horse having at least one copy of E is 75%.

The second condition is really hard to meet. The 'a' allele is much rarer than its 'A' couterpart. Based on my analysis of the offspring of several major sires, I would estimate the frequency of 'a' to be between 3% and 6%. The probability of having two copies (aa) is the frequency squared, so the number is quite small.

Add the first condition and the probability of having a black thoroughbred becomes small indeed. Since genes are inherited from parents, the chances of getting a black TB are higher when you see black ancestors not too far back (indicating that 'a' runs in the family), but they don't necessarily need to be there, since 'a' can be hidden by 'A,' by chestnut, and by grey (which masks all colors). It's also hard to tell black and dark brown appart, although they are genetically distinct with respect to the agouti locus. This can in theory be tested for, but the test costs money.

[halfpint23]

Somebody asked about the genetics behind 'black' horses. Here's my crappy explanation of the accepted theory on the matter:

Base coat color in horses is mainly determined by two genes. The first gene, or 'extension' locus gene, governs what color pigments the horse can produce (red or black). The second, or 'agouti' locus gene, governs the distribution of black pigment.<SNIP>
It's also hard to tell black and dark brown appart, although they are genetically distinct with respect to the agouti locus. This can in theory be tested for, but the test costs money.

<SNIP>

Wow, great dissertation! I will have to print it and stick it in my color book. Nice to have it on one page instead of several, thanks very much!

For those interested, here's the link to pricing for the tests that UC Davis offers
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/hors ... tions.html

I haven't "got around to it" yet for any of ours...... that fifty bucks always does seem to have a higher use!

[summerhorse]

The current blacks on the canter site above seem to all be seal brown. But because most blacks fade a little or a lot you really have to test to be sure.

True black is a misnomer now because now we know you can't always tell by looking what it is! You have to test if it is important to you to know. Fading and color are unrelated except that there is a heirarchy in the color scheme at which colors fade (first to fade is black, then browns, bays, etc. of course that is actually black, red, yellow, and so on) It is a quality of the hair shaft itself, not color. It is just more obvious in blacks because that is the first color affected by the well, loss of color.

[milynda]

Here are a couple of photos of our registered black TB stallion, RJ's Harri aka Tuxedo:





He is homozygous black.

[milynda]

Also, for the color testing, try this site:

http://www.horsetesting.com/

Each test is $25 and the service has been faster for me than UC Davis. They email very quickly (anywhere from 4-8 days after I mail them the sample) and also send a nice printed certificate--the best hard copy I have received from any of the labs I've used. They are also easy to reach on the phone.

[jumper77]

Ok, Milynda, WOW! on Tuxedo! Your website just went on my favorites list. And you're in TX, right nextdoor to me! I'm not breeding anytime soon, but when I do... he looks like he'd have fantastic hunter movement too. Just wanted you to know I actually drooled on my keyboard!


And just so I mention the actual topic: I saw the horse they used in The Black Stallion one time at LSU. He was gorgeous! He was from Louisiana, if I'm not mistaken.

[summerhorse]

Tuxedo is STUNNING! Wow.