Over At The Knee
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Over At The Knee
Are there certain bloodlines that have a tendency for this? What are your opinions about a horses athletic ability and the predisposition for passing this on to their offspring?
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Intrinsic Worth
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:27 pm
As far as lines that pass it on, I think they all do to some extent. A little over at the knee is generally acceptable (it's rare to find perfect conformation.) When you notice the leg quivering because they can't properly put their leg down, then you know it's too over at the knee. If it looks uncomfortable, it probably is and it can affect their racing careers.
It is one of those things that is passed down, so you definitely would want to breed to someone with good legs.
It is one of those things that is passed down, so you definitely would want to breed to someone with good legs.
All men are equal on the turf - or under it.
hi Intrinsic Worth
Songandaprayer quivers (both knees) and buckles-over...almost nonstop. I've NEVER seen such a degree of quivering (your word) in any other horse EVER.
Maybe so, but I've seen MANY over-at-the-knee horses run successfully, some at a very high level...including G1 winner Songandaprayer.
Best to you...
and Happy New Year.
Respectfully.
Intrinsic Worth wrote:When you notice the leg quivering because they can't properly put their leg down, then you know it's too over at the knee.
Songandaprayer quivers (both knees) and buckles-over...almost nonstop. I've NEVER seen such a degree of quivering (your word) in any other horse EVER.
Intrinsic Worth wrote:If it looks uncomfortable, it probably is and it can affect their racing careers.
Maybe so, but I've seen MANY over-at-the-knee horses run successfully, some at a very high level...including G1 winner Songandaprayer.
Best to you...
and Happy New Year.
Respectfully.
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Savana Star Dubois
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:27 am
- Location: NY
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Savana Star Dubois
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:27 am
- Location: NY
hi Savannah Star Dubois
I would guess that in the mind of whoever wrote what you read, back at the knee is preferable to over at the knee (your words).
That said...I would venture a guess (other considerations aside, including degrees of deviation) that a majority of thoroughbred horsemen/women would (in general) likely prefer an over-at-the-knee horse to a back-at-the-knee horse. Regardless...I've seen many good back-at-the-knee racehorses etc...I've also seen many good over-at-the-knee racehorses etc.
I would suggest that overall conformation, proportion, balance, action, etc etc etc would (in general) likely come into play when evaluating/scrutinizing a horse (as would the purpose intended for the horse; breed, pinhook, race, etc etc)...and the knees (and deviations if any, etc) would be part of, and factor into, the overall evaluation.
It's probably also fair to suggest that a horseperson will more often than not select what he/she personally prefers/likes, and that someone might be more willing to accept a flaw and/or deviation that's similar to what they might have already had success with...than someone else who does not have a good experience and/or success (related to a flaw/deviation) to draw from.
Best to you...
and Happy New Year.
Respectfully
Savana Star Dubois wrote:I read where back at the knee was preferable to over at the knee..is that true
I would guess that in the mind of whoever wrote what you read, back at the knee is preferable to over at the knee (your words).
That said...I would venture a guess (other considerations aside, including degrees of deviation) that a majority of thoroughbred horsemen/women would (in general) likely prefer an over-at-the-knee horse to a back-at-the-knee horse. Regardless...I've seen many good back-at-the-knee racehorses etc...I've also seen many good over-at-the-knee racehorses etc.
I would suggest that overall conformation, proportion, balance, action, etc etc etc would (in general) likely come into play when evaluating/scrutinizing a horse (as would the purpose intended for the horse; breed, pinhook, race, etc etc)...and the knees (and deviations if any, etc) would be part of, and factor into, the overall evaluation.
It's probably also fair to suggest that a horseperson will more often than not select what he/she personally prefers/likes, and that someone might be more willing to accept a flaw and/or deviation that's similar to what they might have already had success with...than someone else who does not have a good experience and/or success (related to a flaw/deviation) to draw from.
Best to you...
and Happy New Year.
Respectfully
Savana Star Dubois wrote:Okey dokey pokeyman...I just wanted a clarification so when I buy the next triple crown winner...lol
Hehehehe!!!!
We raced a horse that was back at the knee. Tried to protect him with training, race spacing, lay ups, etc. and he still ended up lame.
Lesson learned...never again.
On the other hand, have personally seen 100 mile endurance horses, race horses, and Grand Prix show jumpers all over at the knee and as sound as heck!!
Thanks FOS for twisting people's post and using only a portion of the message so you could counter with an exquisite expose of your own.
I think it would be thoroughly entertaining if you would treat your own posts the way you do others... and I wish, someday you would chose to entertain us with your own version of point-counterpoint using your own posts.
Many times I agree with at least part of what you post... and usually I, like most, ignore the gyrations involving others thoughts... but I could not this time.
Intrinsic Worth is correct. Being over at the knee is normally not a huge detriment to the soundness of a horse. Being overly-over does usually result in soundness issues. Of course, this also would require us to come to some type of agreement as to degrees of over... which will never happen...
FOS serves up one example... Songandaprayer... of course, while I will not discredit the horse... if I remember correctly, there were concerns with his soundness, especially as he continued to get older, heavier, and more muscular. If memory serves, we can throw El Gran Senor into this equation also. Hmm....
Being back at the knee is far less desirable, unless, perhaps you are FOS (in more ways than one). It is fairly widely accepted that with a horse that is back, knee problems, usually chips, are probably going to occur. At least, the likelihood is so enhanced that the general train of thought is "don't chance it", when buying one (and, "Now what" when breeding one.) Which is something to keep in mind when considering using a mare or stallion that is back.
Sure there are many exceptions... but there are reasons why virtually every horseman and vet will provide virtually the same answers. Pokeymon provides a firsthand verification.
Now, as far as overall conformation and preferences, etc. FOS does make a very good point... and a point worth rereading and considering... and is supported by things such as the Conformation Series from a few years ago in which Baffert claimed to like horses that toe-in, while other trainers said that they stayed away from them.
However, it is fairly universal that back at the knees is bad... no matter how wonderful the specimen... and while it isn't good for the horse in training and racing, it will kill its value (or at least greatly reduce it) in the sales ring. (Which, by the way, is a big reason why there are so many efforts to "help" said critters as weanlings, long before they enter the sales ring.)
Now, for the original question... are there certain lines which seem to have a higher than average being over a the knee? I believe certain Northern Dancer's tend to gravitate in this direction. But, our true pedigree guru's can probably give better details.
Follow-up... what about back at the knee? Hmmm.... seems like this was linked to some of the Buckpasser lines... but I could be way, way off base.
Another interesting thought and one I would love to hear more about from someone far more knowledgable than I... is that both conformation "flaws" are more significantly linked with the way the foal developed prior to birth than that which may be passed along via bloodlines. Seems plausible... but my mind is only sharp enough to ASK the question.
I think it would be thoroughly entertaining if you would treat your own posts the way you do others... and I wish, someday you would chose to entertain us with your own version of point-counterpoint using your own posts.
Many times I agree with at least part of what you post... and usually I, like most, ignore the gyrations involving others thoughts... but I could not this time.
Intrinsic Worth is correct. Being over at the knee is normally not a huge detriment to the soundness of a horse. Being overly-over does usually result in soundness issues. Of course, this also would require us to come to some type of agreement as to degrees of over... which will never happen...
FOS serves up one example... Songandaprayer... of course, while I will not discredit the horse... if I remember correctly, there were concerns with his soundness, especially as he continued to get older, heavier, and more muscular. If memory serves, we can throw El Gran Senor into this equation also. Hmm....
Being back at the knee is far less desirable, unless, perhaps you are FOS (in more ways than one). It is fairly widely accepted that with a horse that is back, knee problems, usually chips, are probably going to occur. At least, the likelihood is so enhanced that the general train of thought is "don't chance it", when buying one (and, "Now what" when breeding one.) Which is something to keep in mind when considering using a mare or stallion that is back.
Sure there are many exceptions... but there are reasons why virtually every horseman and vet will provide virtually the same answers. Pokeymon provides a firsthand verification.
Now, as far as overall conformation and preferences, etc. FOS does make a very good point... and a point worth rereading and considering... and is supported by things such as the Conformation Series from a few years ago in which Baffert claimed to like horses that toe-in, while other trainers said that they stayed away from them.
However, it is fairly universal that back at the knees is bad... no matter how wonderful the specimen... and while it isn't good for the horse in training and racing, it will kill its value (or at least greatly reduce it) in the sales ring. (Which, by the way, is a big reason why there are so many efforts to "help" said critters as weanlings, long before they enter the sales ring.)
Now, for the original question... are there certain lines which seem to have a higher than average being over a the knee? I believe certain Northern Dancer's tend to gravitate in this direction. But, our true pedigree guru's can probably give better details.
Follow-up... what about back at the knee? Hmmm.... seems like this was linked to some of the Buckpasser lines... but I could be way, way off base.
Another interesting thought and one I would love to hear more about from someone far more knowledgable than I... is that both conformation "flaws" are more significantly linked with the way the foal developed prior to birth than that which may be passed along via bloodlines. Seems plausible... but my mind is only sharp enough to ASK the question.
Thanks for all the info and thoughts on this subject.
I too have heard that while in the mare the foal can sometimes be a liitle too large and thus create problems, uaually with their legs. Has any one else heard this?
I have seen a horse that was over at the knee, but his parents had straight legs. Maybe from a grandparent?
More thoughts??
I too have heard that while in the mare the foal can sometimes be a liitle too large and thus create problems, uaually with their legs. Has any one else heard this?
I have seen a horse that was over at the knee, but his parents had straight legs. Maybe from a grandparent?
More thoughts??
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Briscomomma
- Weanling
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:17 am
yea but what about secretariat! he looked slightly bent ALL the time. You want a horse slightly bent because when they are racing their knee hyperextends back (freeze frame a photo) and the 3 joints in the knee all interact (with the mid two communicably). If you have a knee already locked out, the friction will increase upon extention (and weight) and this is where arthritis sets in. Obviously there are exceptions in both bias, but this is the general kinetic idea, and physical description. Remember knees can vary between 6-8 bones!! Calf knees are bad, but being overly straight is worse. Just make sure they bend the right way!