Guest worker bill for Agri-workers

[BJ]

I, for one, would rather pay MORE for my fruits and vegetables and less for my health care and taxes, due to the pressure that the influx of 30 million llegals has caused on our SOCIAL systems, our security, our schools, traffic, insurance rates, and just about everything we pay for.

Whether you agree with what our politicians are doing or disagree...make yourself heard. Because you WILL pay for it, one way or the other, via taxes and degraded lifestyle and opportunities. No wonder the middle class is being squeezed out

Agricultural Guest-Worker Bill Introduced in Washington
by: Leslie Deckard
January 16 2007 Article # 8694
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=8694

As many as 1.5 million undocumented farm workers and their relatives currently living and working in the United States could gain legal status under an ambitious agricultural guest-worker plan introduced Jan. 10 on Capitol Hill.

The Agricultural Job Opportunity, Benefits, and Security Act of 2007-AgJobs Bill-is the first major immigration overhaul bill introduced this year, mirroring legislation passed last year by the Senate but not the House of Representatives.

"The AgJobs bill is a two-part bill," said one of its sponsors, Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California. "Part one would create a pilot program to identify undocumented agricultural workers and legalize the immigration status for those who have been working in the United States for the past two years or more. The second part would create a more usable H-2A program to implement a realistic and effective guest worker program."

The legislation has bipartisan sponsorship.

"We've supported this bill for some time," American Horse Council president Jay Hickey said. "It would speed up the process to the H-2A agricultural workers, which is what our farms use."

Under the bill, illegal immigrants that can prove they have worked in agricultural jobs for at least 150 working days for the past two years would become eligible for a "blue card" giving them temporary legal status. Their spouses and minor children also could get a blue card if they already live in the U.S.

The total number of blue cards would be capped at 1.5 million over a five-year period, and the program would sunset after five years. Those who receive the blue cards must work in agriculture an additional three years, at least 150 days per year, or five years at least 100 days a year, to become eligible for legal residency. In addition, they must pay a $500 fine, be up to date on taxes, and not have committed crimes involving bodily injury or threat of bodily injury or caused serious property damage of $500 or more.

Blue-card holders would be allowed to work in other, non-agricultural jobs as long as the agriculture work requirements are met. While the AgJobs bill could have a positive effect for farm workers, it wouldn't aide racetrack stable employees who enter the country legally under the H-2B visa program.

"The AgJobs bill is strictly for agriculture--for our breeding farms," Hickey said. "The other part of the (immigration reform) puzzle will deal with non-agriculture workers such as backside employees. That bill has yet to be introduced.

"There are different groups working on different parts. The horse industry uses both agricultural and non-agricultural workers under the H-2A and H-2B program. We need both parts of the puzzle."

[Laro]

Well the problem isn't just higher prices. What is most likely to happen is you will be eating 90% FOREIGN fruits and vegetables. We then would be in the same position as we are with oil, dependent on other countries to provide us with food. This won't happen overnight, but is a response that over time is very plausable. I for 1 think we need a guest worker program, I grew up in Ag, and have worked in other countries that ship produce to the United States. I would rather have my tomato grown here, and picked by a migrant, than grown in Mexico and picked by the same guy.

[Tucumcari]

It's too bad it isn't applicable for backstretch workers. Lord knows we need 'em.

[Sam]

You know what amuses me the most?

The most common lament I hear is that the illegals do the work American's won't do.

I think the ICE raids on Swift proved that false. They had a line of people the next day applying for those jobs.

It's not that American's won't do them, it's that American's won't do them for the slave wages.

But that's not the part that amuses me....

I don't watch American broadcast news. Can't stand them. They're all full of sensationalist hot air and political rhetoric. I get my international news from BBC. It can be just as bad, but at least they don't irritate the hell out of me with the screaming at each other.

Change the country from the US to Russia and change Mexican illegals to Turks/Curds/whatever. Same issue. "They do the jobs citizens won't." Change the country to the UK, change the illegals to Muslims... same issue (though not as bad as here and Russia).

14yo Somalian orphans packing onto a leaky fishing boat with 40 other Somalians and taking their chances to cross the gulf of Aden -- sometimes capsizing and being killed by sharks... if they aren't just thrown overboard and left to die.

Same crap, different country.

[Sam]

BTW, my problem with this guest worker crap is that it rewards people for BREAKING THE LAW.

What the hell is so hard to understand about the word ILLEGAL?

I don't care if they are here, just do it legally. I'm also tired of the pandering we do. WTF? Seriously, if I moved to another country, I'm going to learn to blend in -- that means LEARN THE LANGUAGE. I'm not going to move in then demand they start printing things in English so it's easier for me to live there.

[Laro]

Well I for 1 have been in Agriculture in Southern California for the last say 40 years. I have NEVER seen a white guy picking tomatoes or avocados, or oranges. NEVER. Now I'm sure you could hire one for say $20.00 per hour and the orange would cost say $17.50. I could then buy one from Chile for $0.59. Which would you buy? Most workers I know here learn to speak English as fast as they can. I can understand why illegal makes someone angry, but the facts are they have been allowed to come here and work for the last 50 years and now we are trying to change that. This is not a simple problem, and the last thing we ought to do is make it a racial one, and I believe that implies what you said about everything being in Spanish. In Canada everything is in French, and if you go to Banaff everything is in Japanese. I believe we would benefit from some guest worker program, and I for one hope they get one worked out.

[Barbaro06]

Change is a b*tch but something has to be done. No one should be rewarded for doing something illegal. The system is broken and it has to be fixed. It isn't going to be pretty that's for sure. But if we are going to enforce the laws, people have to be hired to do so. We can't keep doing things on the cheap...

[Tucumcari]

At the very least if they are legal they will pay taxes without needing to use someone elses SS#, they become an actual part of society, so to speak. It might help clean some of the offending behaviors of illegals.
We do need them Sam. I'm white, and I do the work, but I'm also an immigrant.
The backside is a predominantly hispanic population. The doors are wide open for people to come to work. There is always work available for anyone who wants a job. There isn't a big line up of white people wanting to fill these jobs.
We need people who want to work. They are a huge part of what makes any barn tick. They are making a better life for themselves and their families. Ah, the American dream.

[Sam]

This is not a simple problem, and the last thing we ought to do is make it a racial one, and I believe that implies what you said about everything being in Spanish.

It's not a race issue and never has been except to the Hispanics and the ACLU.

I spent 15 years in Northern California and there more illegal Asians there than there are Hispanic. They come over on Visas that expire and no one does anything about it. The difference is that they are coming in for white collar work -- engineers and such and aside from Chinatown, there isn't the pandering to that segment of the population. When was the last time you heard an Asian radio station? I can't remember one other than in SF proper, yet there are 8 Hispanic ones on the FM band here in Las Vegas.

When was the last time you called a place and were told to press one for Mandarin. It happens, but it's rare. Most times it's 1 for English, 2 for Spanish and any other language has to wait for an operator.

People are always assuming that the only thing Illegal Hispanics do is menial jobs like clean house/pools and pick produce. I grew up in the construction industry... they don't. They frame house, install windows, fix air conditioners... every thing. And they drive the wages down of the legal Americans who do the same job. Framers in Las Vegas used to make $25 an hour. Now they make $9 if they are lucky. Why, because the foremen hire illegal day labourers to do the same job and he can get 3 of them for the same amount as one legal and BONDED American citizen. He then gives them all the same social security number to use and under reports the earnings to the IRS. I've watched it happen.

This is about ILLEGAL. Period. Just because 70% of the people affected by the law are of one specific ethnicity, doesn't mean the law or the people behind it are racists. It's a numbers game.

I would be bothered by it less if the ones coming here illegally actually wanted to be Americans. They DON'T. They want to be whatever ethnicity they are, but living in and taking advantage of American benefits.

Did no one see the last line in the Bloodhorse article on the issue a few months back. The "unnamed groom" has a home and ranch in Mexico. He flat out said he didn't want to be an American citizen, he just wanted to earn money here.

I REALLY don't think the founders of this country had that in mind. I also don't think the framers of the constitution had anchor babies in mind when they wrote the clause about anyone born on American soil is automatically an American citizen. THAT crap needs to stop, NOW.

As for them paying into Social Security... I'm going to assume (because it's been kept quiet in the mainstream US media) you are unaware of the Totalization Agreement that has all but passed with Mexico? The one that says illegals, just on their word of having worked in this country for more than 5 years, will now be eligible for SS?

It's not an uncommon one. This country has several with other nations. It's so that Americans working in foreign lands don't get taxed twice on the same income and vis versa. HOWEVER, just about all those agreements are with countries that are on the same economic level as the US.

So a system that is forecast to be paying out more than it is taking in by 2017 and totally bankrupt by 2040 is now going to have an additional 5-10 million drawing from it?

Damn thing isn't going to be there by the time I'm ready to draw on it, what the hell am I paying into it for? So someone else can use my money?

The bottom line to me is this program rewards people for BREAKING THE LAW. I don't agree with that and I never will.

[Tucumcari]

People are always assuming that the only thing Illegal Hispanics do is menial jobs like clean house/pools and pick produce. I grew up in the construction industry... they don't. They frame house, install windows, fix air conditioners... every thing.

Just for the record as it was an ag base title, and an ag based article, that might be why we are leaning toward talking about the one's that do the meanial manual labor jobs.
And you are right. Visa's expire and people stay regardless of status.


He then gives them all the same social security number to use and under reports the earnings to the IRS. I've watched it happen.

True again. OR you can buy a number for $50 on the street. I've seen that as well.

I would be bothered by it less if the ones coming here illegally actually wanted to be Americans. They DON'T. They want to be whatever ethnicity they are, but living in and taking advantage of American benefits.

What American benefits do illegals have? just out of curiosity.

Did no one see the last line in the Bloodhorse article on the issue a few months back. The "unnamed groom" has a home and ranch in Mexico. He flat out said he didn't want to be an American citizen, he just wanted to earn money here.

Why do immigrants have to become citizens? Resident is good for me. I love my country. It's where I grew up, but jobs and opportunity in my chosen field are limited, so the US it. Do I want to be a citizen? No, not at this point in my life, maybe someday but I really haven't given it alot of thought.
That said I know a groom from Guatamala who is very wealthy in her country. She and her husband own a coffee plantation there. They both work as grooms in the US. They both recently became citizens. And are so proud to do so.
An exercise rider glows with happiness and his chest noticibly puffs out when he refers to himself as a citizen.
There are alot of those stories to go around as well.

As for them paying into Social Security... I'm going to assume (because it's been kept quite in the mainstream US media) you are unaware of the Totalization Agreement that has all but passed with Mexico? The one that says illegals, just on their word of having worked in this country for more than 5 years, will now be eligible for SS?

Wow... no hadn't heard that one. That does seem like a bad idea. No wonder why it hasn't gotten alot of press.


The bottom line to me is this program rewards people for BREAKING THE LAW. I don't agree with that and I never will.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[BJ]

At the very least if they are legal they will pay taxes without needing to use someone elses SS#, they become an actual part of society, so to speak. It might help clean some of the offending behaviors of illegals.
We do need them Sam. I'm white, and I do the work, but I'm also an immigrant.
The backside is a predominantly hispanic population. The doors are wide open for people to come to work. There is always work available for anyone who wants a job. There isn't a big line up of white people wanting to fill these jobs.
We need people who want to work. They are a huge part of what makes any barn tick. They are making a better life for themselves and their families. Ah, the American dream.

I have NO problem with someone wanting to make a better life for themselves and being willing to play by the rules to do so. My Mother...an American, born here...worked 3 jobs to support her kids after leaving an abusive husband...who then went on to father 12 more kids he didn't take care of...but that is another issue.

What I have a problem with is... IF there are 30 million illegals here...how come there is no one to pick the fruit being frozen on the trees in California? How come Florida couldn't get workers to pick their crops? How come things AREN'T so much better and cheaper????

Why? Because it is a load of BS that the "illegal LOBBY" has tried to shove down the throats of the Americans working too hard to know better Now they want Unions and SS! We have cities passing out condoms to illegal encampments in the canyons just outside of million-dollar home neighborhoods.

As for the backside at the track...There are a lot of wonderful people on the backside. But you can't communicate with most of them unless you LEARN their language. Very few THESE DAYS make the effort to learn OUR language. The (illegal) immigrant of today is saavy in getting around the rules and getting out of living by them.

That is why the Chinese and the Japanese and the Vietnamese (Oriental) all do so much better than the masses of Hispanic immigrants (legal or illegal). Because they UNDERSTAND success does not come from refusing to assimilate and to be a contributing member of society. I can remember when I was a grammar school kid, in New Jersey. A Polish immigrant family moved into the neighborhood. They could only afford to rent the basement of a house. There were NO windows. It was dark and damp, but they made it homey and warm. The parents, who could not speak English, sat around the "kitchen table" with the kids, when they got home from school and THEY ALL LEARNED ENGLISH from the school books. They taught me some Polish. These were hardworking people, willing to play by the rules. And guess what...they didn't have 1/2 dozen more kids that they couldn't support either.

I'd rather buy my vegetables and fruit from another country, if need be, than my medical care, my education and my other "services" that I feel requires a certain level of TRUST and ACCOUNTABILITY.

Our jobs and services are already in other countries. I spent two hours on hold the other day, for Symantec (Norton Antivirus) to talk to someone about why they auto-charged my credit card. I finally got a person in INDIA, who I could barely understand, that wanted all my personal identifying info, INCLUDING my credit card statement faxed to him to prove they charged me. NO THANK YOU! Oh...but the fat cat Executives that speak English and make the big BONUSES for saving the company money by OUTSOURCING....their office is in CUPERTINO, CA.

The Worker's Comp system is broken because of fraud. The same with Medicare. How many of those perpetrating the fraud do you think are "legal Americans", let alone legal immigrants?

Our jobs are going elsewhere because businesses aren't willing (or able) to pay for the high cost of all the fraud and giveaway programs. So PLEASE...DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT buying fruits and vegetables from another country. If someone owns land and can no longer farm it...the land in itself is valuable and they can do other things with it. They can start by inventing a frost/heating system for the crops that is a bit more sophisticated than burning little fires.

If anything, the illegals are pushing our jobs and our lifestyles downward and gone. But we are "racist" for objecting to them. What then, are they, for stealing from us and spitting in our faces about following our laws? It sure feels like Anti-Americanism to me!

Why don't 30 million illegals get together and TAKE BACK MEXICO from the corrupt politicians there? (Mexico is RICH in natural resources, including oil.) I don't recall that Americans had this country handed to them. Maybe they need to be less "migrant" and more "stand and fight" for your children and your own country.

But hey...why should the illegals fight for Mexico, when they can get America for free? Talk about your stealth takeover!

I wouldn't have a problem with a guest worker program if the people had to learn English and had to pay into their own separate social security system, which would be their ONLY SOURCE of public welfare and/or entitlement programs, including EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. (Forgot to mention that many hospitals are closing because of the prohibitive costs to give FREE services to illegals, many of whom are here to have babies, or get patched up from bar fights.) And any employer that hires them, ought to have to provide housing for them on their own property, instead of letting them camp out in other neighborhoods and hang out on street corners harassing residents, and other "lovely" things.

We have VETERANS that have fought in wars for us that are homeless and can't get or hold a job. Fix that problem first...and our own elderly and children and THEN, see what we can do for others.

Maybe our American kids, or legal immigrants, desiring to become Americans, would then take jobs as bus boys, and dish washers, and on the backside, to learn a little responsibility and then MOVE up the ladder to make room for the next American kid, or "legal" immigrant. But they cannot do that, to even help their parents pay their way thru college, IF the jobs are all filled with illegals can they?

Actually, I think things would be cheaper and better, because we would be supporting our own society, instead of the society of ANOTHER country

[BJ]

Well I for 1 have been in Agriculture in Southern California for the last say 40 years. I have NEVER seen a white guy picking tomatoes or avocados, or oranges. NEVER. Now I'm sure you could hire one for say $20.00 per hour and the orange would cost say $17.50. I could then buy one from Chile for $0.59. Which would you buy? Most workers I know here learn to speak English as fast as they can. I can understand why illegal makes someone angry, but the facts are they have been allowed to come here and work for the last 50 years and now we are trying to change that. This is not a simple problem, and the last thing we ought to do is make it a racial one, and I believe that implies what you said about everything being in Spanish. In Canada everything is in French, and if you go to Banaff everything is in Japanese. I believe we would benefit from some guest worker program, and I for one hope they get one worked out.

Ah...I think last season Florida was complaining AND negotiating with the illegals, to pay them something like $15.00 an hour. They were refusing to work and were only working for the farms that would pay the highest wages.

As for learning English as fast as they can...have to totally disagree. I pay top dollar to have my horses at a decent S. Cal. farm. There are employees in supervisory positions there, that have been here for at least as long as I've had my horses there (3 1/2 years) and they still can't answer a simple question like, "is there a towel?" (complete with dripping hands and appropriate sign language) and all you get is the smile and the nod... or "did my horse get its meds"?

Not to mention, that as a culture, from what I have seen, THEY tend to be very RACIST against Americans and seriously look down upon the female.

They play both sides of this "coin". On the one hand they want you to feel sorry for them for doing "menial labor". On the other hand, they do little to assimilate and improve their skills or their opportunities. And like I said...just like Americans have had to and still have to, they need to stand up and fix THEIR OWN COUNTRY and stop trying to take from ours in GREAT DISPROPORTION to what they give.

[Sam]

What American benefits do illegals have? just out of curiosity.

Most public schools and all ERs are not allowed to inquire about citizenship status. IOW, free schooling and healthcare. Which is HUGE drain on the tax base since they tend to live in depressed areas with a depressed tax base... thereby not contributing to the school taxes. In California, they were based on property tax... if the area isn't worth much, there isn't much to tax as far as schools go.

With health care, it's a case of clinic treatment then post natal care when they have kids. In the first 6 months of last year, Parklane Hospital in Dallas (where they took Kennedy) had something like 1200 childbirths to illegal women. More than 70% of all births. All of those children are instantly legal American citizens ... and by extension, their mothers get an 18 year stay on deportation since you can't take the kid from her and put it in an orphanage.

The benefit of illegals "doing the jobs Americans won't" isn't worth the cost on our social programs.

Why do immigrants have to become citizens? Resident is good for me.

Truthfully, I'd be fine with them becoming permanent residents as well. There isn't even a desire to do that.

There's something driving this worker program crap and it isn't the Illegals. For the most part, Hispanics vote Democrat. This is a power play and they are using the fear of paying $25 for a head of lettuce to do it.

People are being sold a line of bullshit that Americans won't do the jobs and they are buying it without question. Americans WILL do the jobs, just not for the money offered. Again, the ICE raids on the Swift plants proved that. They had to raise their wages a bit, but day after the raid they had people lined up for the jobs. Happy, well-paid employees DON'T UNIONIZE.

What hurts the racing industry is the wage thing coupled with the fact that ours is no longer an agriculturally based society. I dunno about you, but the only exposure to horses most of my high school class had was the merry-go-round at the amusement park and the mounted police at the mall. My mother's generation -- they either grew up on farms and went back to work on the farm after high school or they went in the army. In the cities, you had a choice between army, college or trade school to become a mechanic or something. We've long since done away with trade schools.

People just don't have any experience with horses anymore. Most people I knew who wanted to be vets, they were thinking household animals like dogs and cats. So the kids with horse experience who do live near the tracks get jobs as grooms and the kids without it are intimidated by horses.

Me? I lived too far from a track to get a job there and by the time I had a car, I was already sucked into a job in the construction industry and making twice the money. If I could have been a groom on the backside at 15/16yo, I'd have done it in a heartbeat. I didn't get a car until I was 19 (I had boyfriends with mustangs... what the hell did I need a car for ) and the closest track to me was over 2 hours by bus/BART.

[Tucumcari]

Most public schools and all ERs are not allowed to inquire about citizenship status. IOW, free schooling and healthcare.

I did not know that.

Truthfully, I'd be fine with them becoming permanent residents as well. There isn't even a desire to do that.

What hurts the racing industry is the wage thing coupled with the fact that ours is no longer an agriculturally based society. I dunno about you, but the only exposure to horses most of my high school class had was the merry-go-round at the amusement park and the mounted police at the mall. My mother's generation -- they either grew up on farms and went back to work on the farm after high school

I grew up in a rural community, so most of us were exposed to backyard or cow horses, but I am aware that is not the norm in bigger communities. I personally think I was pretty lucky to have grown up in that community

If I could have been a groom on the backside at 15/16yo, I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

Me too.

[BJ]

You know Sam...if I wasn't so old and broken down, I'd get a job as a groom. (I wish life could be that SIMPLE!) It is a PRIVILEGE to work with horses. Unfortunately, too many people don't realize that!