European Breeders

[Shammy Davis]

Hi all: Over the past few months, I've been researching breeders and programs across the globe. I'm not sure that I'm coming to the right conclusions about the European breeding and commercial sales programs particularly in GB, IE, FR, and IT. My initial conclusion is that Europe has very little to offer the North American TB breeder and that we should be looking to South American for better form. In particular, I'm seeing layer after layer of Northern Dancer in pedigrees and I'm also seeing US/Canandian bred horses, initially sent to Europe being brought back after success to the US . What we have derived from Europe via Neartic seems to be staying here or at the very least returning here so my question is: What do they have to offer that we don't already have, except nice turf courses?
Comments? As always, best regards - Shammy

[Ruffian]

LOL you've hit the nail on the head there. I hate the fact we have soo much ND, and it is soo close in the pedigrees it is now going 2 x 3. We do however offer Mill Reef lines (but they mix best with Sadlers/ND on top, MR/ Shirley Heights on the bottom). If you want outcrosses Germany is a great place to find absolutely wonderful outcross lines.
I would argue that our racing (all turf bar a Listed on Dirt I believe) is much superior to US Turf racing (bar the big ones, i.e. Breeders Cup, Million, anything you see Euro trained horses compete in )
And even our low quality races I see it all the time a filly/colt sells to a US bloodstock agent after winning a small maiden goes to the states and gets Blacktype (maybe in a little race).... But still.

I will finish this off later

[louis finochio]

While I agree on the quality stallions are on this side of the pond, their is the soundness issue to be delt with. I call it the missing link. The stallions progeny average starts has fallen off the cliff in the last 20 years, because of the watering down of ND blood and other Phalaris sire line stallions that are responsible for the progeny average starts decline. Euro and South America has the out cross and soundness to stop the decline of our stallions pogeny average starts. It is past due time wise to put back the soundess in our American TB.

[Shammy Davis]

Hi LF & Ruffian: Thanks for the comments. I was not aware of any real successes in Germany, so (Ruffian) would you elaborate. Unfortunately for this real time world, we just don't get the valuable information until it is old hat. Further (Ruffian), I just love GB and IE. We've made numerous visits and when I was a young US Marine some many many years ago, I had the opportunity to serve w/the Royal Marines. Loved it when cocktails could still be served on the HM ships. Must be boring today. Well, there are the pubs and racing. I guess I could get back into the thick of it. As an aside, Ruffian, I have a young filly out of a FR mare imported here whose grandsire is No Pass No Sale (IE). I can 't find anything of interest on him. What is his status or significance, if you know? Presidium (GB) is the grandsire of another filly here. Any particulars will be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

LF - Soundness is a big problem in the US. Many of my friends and associates have spoken about the South American industry doing a better job than the US and EU in this venue. Often quoted: "South American's don't spend time on what is fashionable." Forgive me, I'm just not knowledgeable. LF, do you want to chime in on this one? Comments from others more experienced? Please? As always, best regards - Shammy

[Mike]

I agree with Louis. Soundness is something that your horses could do with more of. Is Europe the place to get it. There's always downunder!!

[Shammy Davis]

Right mate, but you had better review your import air freight invoices for all those shuttle stallions and US sale TB's that are shipped to downunder. That may not be the answer either, unless you've got semen saved from Pharlap's NZ youth that you can sneak a mare under The AUS Jockey Club nose. I've reviewed your programs too. The thoroughbred world has a real problem. Downunder is included.

I have a kennel of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. They are about 13% of retrievers in the U. S. and Canada which is something similar to the amount of thoroughbreds in comparison to all equines populating the world. The rule of thumb in the Chesapeake Bay Retriever breeding world is that you inbreed/linebreed to insure breed predictability and you outcross to save the breed.

Looks to me that LF is right except that very few of us today have any line to outcross to that doesn't retain something of the cross we are trying to eliminate or dilute. Possibly our only hope is to hope and pray that the genes get so diluted by outcrossing that some strength is retained in the newer crops. Possibly we could start making a list of those stallions that are not so deeply inbred and then look to family lines that have greater probability of strengthening them.

Mike: Thanks for your comments. I'd prefer to tip a few cool ones downunder. Give me a invite and pay my way and I'll be there day after tomorrow. Best wishes - Shammy

[Ramona]

Oh Boy! Is that why the European horses come over here and "kick booty," in our Breeder's Cup races? Check it out, if the European horses have one flaw in confirmation, you can run 'em, but you can't breed 'em. That is one thing breeder's in the U.S. haven't figured out yet, we still overlook too many flaws. They don't!!

[Mike]

Shammy
Watch for a horse to race in the UK called Fastnet Rock. He'll show you what Choisir showed the poms two years ago and at the same time of year. We have hardy horses down here!!! Choisir raced in and won two group races in five days. Is that good or is that fantastic?
All the best.

[Shammy Davis]

Romona: What am I too make of your post? Are you saying we North American's are too picky? Do the Europeans really have it over us on picking runners but not breeders? Or possibly they have decided to hold on to the process of century genetic recycling? I guess they figured it out. They sent us their old foundations beginning with races thorough the streets of Williamsburg and now, after a couple of hundred years, we've sent them back the results, which we immediately buy back to inbreed to our second or third crop by the same stallion. Hmmm, if my math is right that means in another 200 years Marcel Boussac XVIII and the then current Earl of Derby et al should be sending Bull Hancock's great great great grandchildren, plus or minus, the 17th generation foundation sires and broodmares by Northern Dancer, Hail to Reason, Bold Ruler, et al to carry the North American industry into the 23nd Century, give or take a few generations and years. Thus we can count on winning the big big races in Europe after 2300. Something is wrong here. It has to be the math. Romona chime in anytime and get back me on track, because if these calculations are right, I will not be able to attend any races that my breeding plan has called for. This is very disappointing, but it will be nice to be sitting up there with Chris Cherney, Ogden Phipps, Paul Mellon, Bull Hancock and his sons, Mary Lou Whitney, and Robert & Beverly and the rest as we look down on the then BC.

I can hear the conversations now as Ogden Phipps asks: "How did all these lines get so unsound. Forty-five seconds is an awfully slow 1/8 of a mile, don't you agree Mary Lou?" Mary Lou changes the subject and turns to Bob and Beverly Lewis and says, "I'm still so sorry that Smarty lost." Then the original Aga Khan chimes in: "Who the hell is Smarty?" "Nothing you would know about. All after your time. Simply, he's a burden Mary Lou will have to live with." Paul Mellon replies. Then Sunny Fitz jumps up and exclaims: "Hell with Mary Lou, I'm the stupid idiot that let Sea Biscuit go." "Sit down and shut up Sunny Fitz." Denny Phipps demands. Bob Baffert then turns to Ogden and asks, "Aren't you the guy who flipped a coin with Chris Chenery and lost big time?" "You got him that time!" Sunny Fitz cheers. "We've all got burdens." Interjects Sam Riddle. "I should have never given in to that California Buick dealer. I really like Oldsmobiles and I prayed for years that GM would discontinue Buick." "Sam, you've got no class. People in the horse business drive Beamers." Wayne Lukas chirps and then continues. "I like those leg and knee braces the horses are wearing. When I was a basketball coach in Inidiana, all my players wore them." "Shut up, Wayne." Everyone yells. "I never liked Wayne. I thought he was tacky with all cowboy garb on. Hell, he was from Indiana. What do they have in Indiana but floods. You should have given me all your horses." Bob Baffert tells Bob Lewis. Lewis replies, "I'm just so happy to be here." "Shut up." Everyone yells.

Peresonally, I liked this dicussion better when we had concluded that North Americans have it right and Europeans have it wrong. Downunder is looking better if not simpler.

Couldn't sleep tonight. This was the best I could do. Regards - Shammy

[Shammy Davis]

I'm so disappointed. No one made any comments about my previous nocturnal dialogue. I would at least expect someone to say I need help or at the very least a full nights sleep. Even someone suggesting I'm an idiot would be better than nothing. I worked hard to imagine being heavenly with Ogden, Denny, Lewises, Sam Riddle, Mary Lou et al. So disappointed - Shammy

[Shammy Davis]

Mike: You are perfectly right about FASTNET ROCK. He's fantastic, but you're not following rules. Look at his pedigree. Northern Dancer on top of Northern Dancer, come on! You mates keep breeding like this and we're going to start referring to you Aussies as Over and Under. What about my complimentary airfare and accomadations? Regards - Shammy

[Mike]

Hi Shammy
We Aussies are just battlers trying to do our best!! Its just that when we breed horses, even if they themselves are NH bred, we get the best out of them!! Where would Danehill have been if we hadn't recognised him down under.
If you can paddle here, accommodation can be sorted

[Shammy Davis]

Mike: Sorry, mate, I'm too old for physical labor like paddling. I was intimate with the first Queen Elizabeth so that gives you an idea of my age. So, as you will not pay to bring me downunder, you leave me here in the good ole U. S. of A really down in the mouth. Regards, Shammy

[Bettina]

Hallo, Shammy,
I was born and raised in Germany, so started to look first at your own pedigrees. But I'm only and interested amateur, no a practical breeder.

As Mahubah states, for American breeders we have a lot of outvcrooses. And the success of Germanbred Horses on a American tracks shows, we can bred good horses, too, even without ND/Native Dancer/
Mr. Prospector.

The big problem is, foreign breeder are not aquainted with our Top Sires and female families. When I started to trace the female families of our homebreds are really great surprises, only the connections are offen very far back.

American breds are competing very much on Dirt Track, in Europa it's different, all important Races are run on Turf. It doesn't look as a problem at first, but it looks the American horses became more adopted to this ground after running so many generations on this kind of track. So it's likely, Europeanbreds have troubles to run on dirt and don't show their true ability. So could it be possible, the first generation offspring of an American/European cross isNt so succesful at it seems at first sight.

Here in Germany is a strict "anti drugs rule", i.e. even when their is the suspicion of the use of Lasix, a Stallion prospect isn't allowed to stand in Germany! Why, the use of such medication can falsify the ability of the true racing ability.

For a starter; I listed some of our great runners and great stallions/foundationsmares after 1900, for those who like to study their peds:

Stallions: Landgraf, Ferro, Alchimist, Arjaman, Aditi, Ferro, Athanasius, Ticino, Orsini, Neckar, Prunus, Oleander, Ladro, Laland, Magnat, Herold, Birkhahn, Konigsstuhl, Star Appeal, Priamos, Literat, Surumu, Acatenango, Lando, Monsun; Lomitas, Platini/Paolini

Foundationmares: Alveole, Festa, Grave and Gay, Orseis/Austria, Winnica, Tactique, Nella Da Gubbio, Adria, Yonne, Waldrun, Sachertorte, Kaiserwurde, Lovely Naples, Love In, Schwarze Kutte,

From the abovementioned mares the descents of Alveole, read Allegretta, and "Schwarze Kutte" (Slip Anchor, Steinlen, Zagreb, Sagace), had the most impact at International racing and breeding.

Germany's Top Studs are The Schlenderhan Stud founded in 1869 and run in the 5th Generation by the same family. The Röttgen Stud, Graditz,
Erlenhof, Auenquelle, Fahrhof, Ammerland, Isarland, Evershorst, Römerhof, Wittekindshof, Zoppenbroich just to name a few.

Hopefully I could gave you some valuable infos.

If you like you can contact the "German Racing and Breeding Organisation" at www.direktorium.de for more insight.

Best regards, Bettina

[Mike]

Very informative post Bettina. I would love to buy a mare from one of the best families to bring down under to Australia. What prices do they generally go for?