This makes me angry

[CA Michael]

I read today's works at Santa Anita and found the name of a 2yo filly which I had bred and sold as a yearling. When I had spoken to her purchaser in October I was pleased to learn that she was Richard Mandella's assistant, and that she had no plans of racing this distance-bred filly at two. Ha! The old double speak.

I'm not one to just sit around and bemoan, so I got on the phone and called this gal at Mandella's barn just now. After reminding her of her original plan, and of the slow approach Mandella normally takes with his young horses, she replied that the filly was looking so good she just decided to go on with her. How many times have I heard that line from "horsemen" who haven't grasped the simple concept that pedigrees are like blueprints. I get so tired of the bullshit excuses people make for their stupidity. I told the gal she was not welcome to look at any of my sales yearlings ever again. Let her keep walking down the shedrow and pick someone else's yearling to ruin. I'm not interested in breeding horses who end up in a can.

[wilf]

Unfortunately it's the nature of the game, whatever phase you are in. You are pleased to make the sale and take the cash and basically you're out! Over the past 20 years I have tried to sell horses on to other careers and every now and again something will go awry and it haunts me eternally. Last year I gave a mare away to a breeder as I liked her stallion, I even paid the $400 shipping bill. Not a month later I was informed that she had been sent to some polo people..... guess I was too trusting! Get used to it Michael.

[CA Michael]

wilf, i've been breeding and selling horses since 1970, got used to "it", and have finally reached the point where enough is enough. I don't have to sell to anyone I don't want to, and I won't. I may not ever sell young horses again at auction. Between the bloodsucking pinhookers, the incompetent trainers, and the clueless owners who think horses are wind-up machines, I've just about had it with the whole process.

[dray33]

It must be awefully difficult to live in a place where you are the only honest resident, and the world conspires against you.

You are 100% correct, btw. You don't have to sell to anyone you dont like. And you no longer have to be one of those bloodsucking pinhookers either. I suggest you stop engaging in the two year-old sales as well.

It's a rare person willing to live by the principles they preach. Best...

[habitat]

Unfortunately it's the nature of the game, whatever phase you are in. You are pleased to make the sale and take the cash and basically you're out!

until you get a call as a result of rescue post for the horse you bred that is now pasture sound only and will be put down if you dont take it back! Then it changes to you're not a responsible breeder.

[CA Michael]

dray,

As one who has been in the TB business for about 10 minutes you are hardly qualified to speak on this or many other subjects of substance. I suggest you stick to your own area of expertise--obfuscation of truth about 2yo sales.

[Rokeby Forever]

Easy, Gents.

I'm just wondering how other breeders have felt through the years when Mr Lukas and Mr Pletcher raced classically bred horses in 4 1/2 furlong races at Keeneland following a string of bullet workouts, especially when those yearlings were purchased by outbidding owners of Charlie Whittingham, Michael Matz, and the like. That would be a thread worth its weight in gold!

[dray33]

dray, As one who has been in the TB business for about 10 minutes you are hardly qualified to speak on this or many other subjects of substance. I suggest you stick to your own area of expertise--obfuscation of truth about 2yo sales.

Time isn't the only estimate of success. Success over time is actually a decent measure of success. It's easy to pick em off one at a time, but can you live it over the long haul? Does the study of your life shine, or look like an endless stream of bickering and failure? For you, I haven't a clue. As for living by your words, takes a brave soul. If you feel it, live it, I admire that too. So take it easy hoss, my post was actually a compliment. No need to go off into the ol' name calling stuff. I posted it even in the face of all the "bloodsucking", "incompetent" and "clueless", you threw out in one single sentence.

My guess is that you have the potential to raise above it all, eventually.

[FOS]

hi dray33...hi CA Michael

Between the bloodsucking pinhookers, the incompetent trainers, and the clueless owners who think horses are wind-up machines, I've just about had it with the whole process.

Harsh...but, unfortunately, arguably all-too-often true (at least to some extent).

It must be awefully difficult to live in a place where you are the only honest resident, and the world conspires against you.

You are 100% correct, btw. You don't have to sell to anyone you dont like. And you no longer have to be one of those bloodsucking pinhookers either. I suggest you stop engaging in the two year-old sales as well.

It's a rare person willing to live by the principles they preach. Best...

I might suggest that, unfortunately, arguably there is a real dose of truth in the disgust and frustration (or whatever it might be called) that CA Michael expressed.

I might also suggest that if you (dray33) stay in the thoroughbred game for years and years, and have an opportunity to see and experience much of the stuff that goes on...you too might better understand what CA Michael offered/wrote.

This can be a very tough and often unforgiving game, but I can understand how/why those that breed and/or raise and/or sell etc etc, might sound-off. Possibly not much differently than CA Michael did.

I would suggest that the game would benefit if more participants, new and old alike alike, would actually make what's in each horse's best interest, priority-one. All too often though, the horse seems to take a back seat. Arguably, other priorities (than what's in the horses best interest) sometimes seem to move to the fore. Sad but arguably all-too-often true.

I sense that you (dray33) do care, will continue to do so, and will make what's in the best interest of the horse...priority one.

I hope that's the case, and expect that in time you might better understand where CA Michael is likely coming from (based on his comments).

Respectfully

[turf]

wilf, i've been breeding and selling horses since 1970, got used to "it", and have finally reached the point where enough is enough. I don't have to sell to anyone I don't want to, and I won't. I may not ever sell young horses again at auction. Between the bloodsucking pinhookers, the incompetent trainers, and the clueless owners who think horses are wind-up machines, I've just about had it with the whole process.

with all the aspects of the biz so screwed up in your world do yourself a favor and get out of the biz and let the rest of us enjoy one of the best sports in the world all you get with your negative attitude is the pleasure behind a keyboard whining to all that will listen

[dray33]

hi dray33...hi CA Michael
I might suggest that, unfortunately, arguably there is a real dose of truth in the disgust and frustration (or whatever it might be called) that CA Michael expressed.

I might also suggest that if you (dray33) stay in the thoroughbred game for years and years, and have an opportunity to see and experience much of the stuff that goes on...you too might better understand what CA Michael offered/wrote.

This can be a very tough and often unforgiving game, but I can understand how/why those that breed and/or raise and/or sell etc etc, might sound-off. Possibly not much differently than CA Michael did.

I would suggest that the game would benefit if more participants, new and old alike alike, would actually make what's in each horse's best interest, priority-one. All too often though, the horse seems to take a back seat. Arguably, other priorities (than what's in the horses best interest) sometimes seem to move to the fore. Sad but arguably all-too-often true.

I sense that you (dray33) do care, will continue to do so, and will make what's in the best interest of the horse...priority one.

I hope that's the case, and expect that in time you might better understand where CA Michael is likely coming from (based on his comments).

Respectfully

Thank you FOS for your rational point of view. But to be clear: I feel the best way to start change for the better is to "clean your own shop", meaning dont just talk it, DO it. Without blathering, I do a lot to make sure that what I do for the horses is the best, and right thing to do. What i WONT do is accuse others blindly to better my cause. I try to do the right thing, I also hope that others do. But I wont cast an industry-wide net, especially if i USE that same industry to sell my own horses. Thats ME.

You FOS, can accept Michael for sounding off. I suggest if Michael were a smarter man (or genuinely concerned) he would present his ideas for change without devisiveness. There is more to gain from pushing back the 2YO sales 2 months then there is calling pinhookers "bloodthirsty", or owners "clueless" or trainers "incompetent". Many aren't. Are some, sure. I understand much of where Michael is coming from, even in the face of name calling, because I do care. The issues are too important to cast aside simply because he is afraid of examining the issue in total and without accusatory hysteria. Add to that incomplete data intended to propegate falsehoods, and sorry, but I gotta step in. That's me too. His actions are that of a racist, only his wrath is for the pinhookers, trainers, breeders... anyone who does not agree with his point of view. Sure, he is "friends" with a pinhooker, the ones he works with of course... but the whole, they are bloodthirsty greedy and money-grabbers.

I've heard it all before. My comment to Michael was an honest one. I happen to agree with much of his sentiment, but his aggressive blindness makes it tough to discuss those issues. Rather, I will always defend the pinhookers, because the ones I work with are honest, hard working and talented people. You'll notice my posting heats up... not when he calls me names (which is often), but when he casts shadows on my friends. I hope you can understand THAT FOS. His is a dialog of dead ends and denial.

I am close to presenting data that will show exactly how dangerous and out of whack his accusations and name calling are. Only then can you see how decieving and self serving his recent actions have been. He welcomed it. Im supplying.

[CA Michael]

turf and dray,

2yo pinhookers. The takers of our industry. Enough said.

[zinn21]

Michael, you're probably right but when you start throwing rocks at trainers; pinhookers etc. the horse ends up a brilliant 2yold and a sound older horse. Horses are extremely adept at making all of us look stupid.

If the filly is with Dick Mandella, she's in good hands. Dick is experienced enough to stop on one when appropriate. I personally try to have all my 2yolds in serious training by July or August. The trick is to back off when needed. If trained prudently the ones that are ready to run at two will and the ones not ready will be stronger physically and mentally at three.

[dray33]

Anyway, like I was saying FOS... don't judge me by my lack of experience... I am doing my best. When I have gathered 1000 years of experience, trust me... I will continue my quest to learn more. Show me the man who thinks he knows everything, I'll show you the man who stopped learning. Show me a man who wont listen, I'll show you a man afraid of what he is hearing. It's fine FOS... Judge me by my words, better yet, judge me by my actions. It's all we have to go by.

Cheers...

[CA Michael]

zinn, that of course was my reaction at the point of sale last October. Since then, I've learned that this assistant, not Mandella, will actually train this filly, although Mandella's name may ultimately appear as program trainer. That's not an uncommon scenario. The problems arise when the learning curve of a new trainer doesn't coincide with the developmental curve of the animal.

re: two year old sales. I am convinced more than ever that buyer education is the solution to these absurd speedfests. The complicity of sales companies, pinhookers, breeders and others in their promulgation really is a really just a symptom of the problem. The actual problem is the buyer's demand for this system. Thus, my little group has some major expansion plans for 2008 in which ALL 2YO BUYERS from the last three years will be directly contacted with the facts about these auctions. Buyer behavior will be our focus, not consignor behavior. In taking this tact, we hope to slam the brakes on this insanity. More later.