stallion selection
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stallion selection
i've been doing hypo-matings for my two mares and could use some suggestion. One is by Chiefs Crown the other by Miswaki. thanks. this is my first ever post and my typing and computer skills are poor
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st. louis kid
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Are you breeding to race or sell? What a nice female family, do you still have Ms. Eloise? One idea at first glance for Ms. Isadora would be Belong to Me. Nice cross with the Northern Dancer line and one of Belong to Me's best runners was Belle Cherie. She was out of Belle De Nuit, who is a half sister to Ms. Eloise. I would thinks Ms. Isadora would be accepted by just about any stud, just depends how much you want to spend.
I would like the foals to be commercial. I wanted to spend $20000 or less if possible. Ms Eloise died last year and is buried at Lochness farm where she lived for many years. I also like Belong to Me.
Do you think the only way to be really commercial without going to a big horse is using new stallions?
I'm willing to race what won't sell but it would be nice to sell.
Do you think the only way to be really commercial without going to a big horse is using new stallions?
I'm willing to race what won't sell but it would be nice to sell.
Last edited by eloise on Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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st. louis kid
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:56 pm
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st. louis kid
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:56 pm
Eloise,
Are you perhaps Mrs. Grimm? If so, I just wished to tell you that I have watched some of your horses run over the years and a couple go through the sales ring. You have done a fantastic job developing this family and the quality definitely shows. Most of us can only dream of having such nice mares and such a wonderful foundation for a breeding program.
I would love to offer some advice on how to breed these mares, but as well as you have done in the past, I fear any advice I could give wouldn't match up to what has already been done.
These two mares are absolutely wonderful, on paper anyway. Do they have the dispositions to match? Also, it might be helpful if you could provide just a little info as to their (or their foals) conformational weaknesses. (For example... Does Princess Eloise toe-in a little? Something in the back of my mind is thinking this... but, I also do not remember her Tabasco Cat having this issue.)
Off the top, the Tabasco Cat mating was remarkable. I would probably have been scared by the tight in-breeding, however I think you had it right, but with the wrong son of Storm Cat. It seems Tactical Cat likes Chief's Crown mares.
I have a couple Chief's Crown mares also... and after a little research (and some reinforcement from Anne Peters at Three Chimneys), I found that there was a definite affinity when bringing in Sir Ivor / Sir Gaylord. Also, in my case, one of my Chief's Crown mares has good bone, so I wouldn't hesitate to send her to a son of Gone West. If I recall correctly, Princess Eloise has plenty of bone, as did her Tabasco Cat colt... so, a son of Gone West may work well... you have to be careful when doubling up Secretariat so close... tend to get big, beautiful bodies, but not enough leg to support them. (My other Chief's Crown mare is out of a General Assembly mare... and she fits the expected mold.)
I ended up sending my mare to Mizzen Mast in 2004 (for reasons other than pedigree). For 2005, I booked her to the horse I wanted last year... Kafwain (gave me the Sir Ivor / Sir Gaylord thing). I would have recommended Proud Citizen, however his book is closed... but, you may still wish to check... they might make an exception for Princess Eloise.
Another which you may consider, but is well beyond $20,000 is Medaglia d'Oro. Of course, if given my choice and $40,000... I would go to Cherokee Run in a heartbeat. (I don't have $40,000, so I went to the next best thing... Kafwain.) My second choice... maybe Speightstown.
Johar may provide the absolute best match on paper. If I were only putting together matings on paper, he would be "it" hands down. Unfortunately, I have not seen him and I am not certain how he will be recieved, initially, in the sales ring. However, your mares have such a good page, as long as you have a quality individual by a sire who elicits hope... I think you will do well. With this in mind, Johar may be an option.
One additional piece of info... the fairly decent runner, Eddington, is out of a Chief's Crown mare, so perhaps the Unbridleds could be a consideration.
As for Ms. Isadora, there were some things to like with Ms Agatha, however Deputy Commander can be hit or miss. Virtually any Northern Dancer line should work... but, as Miswaki tended to gravitate toward smaller stature, I think one would be wise to try to work with the larger lines (or at least individuals) of Northern Dancer.
The super horse Galileo is out of a Miswaki mare, so perhaps a son of Sadler's Wells (or a son of El Prado) may be interesting. Again, there are a few to choose from, and they may even sell well by the time you get ready to sell yours.
The Hail to Reason line stallions have always seemed to have an affinity for both Miswaki and his genetically close relative Woodman, so a stallion from these lines may work well, unfortunately they don't sell well. More Than Ready would probably be the choice of the lot, but you would need them to keep running... and he needs a pretty good sized mare (I'm sorry, but I cannot remember what Ms. Isadora looks like...)
Of course, the current fashion is A.P. Indy over a Mr. P mare. I would be terribly tempted to try to get to the already booked-full Jumpstart. He has the size and conformation to lead one to believe he can handle any negatives the inbreeding might bring, and I would be intrigued because his second dam is a full to Miswaki. It is pretty tight... but interesting as well. Besides, he is a wonderful specimen and I believe he will continue to be a sales sire until his 3 yr olds prove they cannot run... but, I have a feeling they will.
Another one which would interest me somewhat would be Tactical Cat. Of all the Storm Cats, I think he would be my choice for her. However, again, as with More Than Ready... perhaps more so... it is hard to predict what the commercial viability of the Tactical Cat's in year 2006 or 2007.
Again, you have wonderful mares to work with, you simply need them to give birth to quality individuals. I am decidedly envious.
Good luck!
Are you perhaps Mrs. Grimm? If so, I just wished to tell you that I have watched some of your horses run over the years and a couple go through the sales ring. You have done a fantastic job developing this family and the quality definitely shows. Most of us can only dream of having such nice mares and such a wonderful foundation for a breeding program.
I would love to offer some advice on how to breed these mares, but as well as you have done in the past, I fear any advice I could give wouldn't match up to what has already been done.
These two mares are absolutely wonderful, on paper anyway. Do they have the dispositions to match? Also, it might be helpful if you could provide just a little info as to their (or their foals) conformational weaknesses. (For example... Does Princess Eloise toe-in a little? Something in the back of my mind is thinking this... but, I also do not remember her Tabasco Cat having this issue.)
Off the top, the Tabasco Cat mating was remarkable. I would probably have been scared by the tight in-breeding, however I think you had it right, but with the wrong son of Storm Cat. It seems Tactical Cat likes Chief's Crown mares.
I have a couple Chief's Crown mares also... and after a little research (and some reinforcement from Anne Peters at Three Chimneys), I found that there was a definite affinity when bringing in Sir Ivor / Sir Gaylord. Also, in my case, one of my Chief's Crown mares has good bone, so I wouldn't hesitate to send her to a son of Gone West. If I recall correctly, Princess Eloise has plenty of bone, as did her Tabasco Cat colt... so, a son of Gone West may work well... you have to be careful when doubling up Secretariat so close... tend to get big, beautiful bodies, but not enough leg to support them. (My other Chief's Crown mare is out of a General Assembly mare... and she fits the expected mold.)
I ended up sending my mare to Mizzen Mast in 2004 (for reasons other than pedigree). For 2005, I booked her to the horse I wanted last year... Kafwain (gave me the Sir Ivor / Sir Gaylord thing). I would have recommended Proud Citizen, however his book is closed... but, you may still wish to check... they might make an exception for Princess Eloise.
Another which you may consider, but is well beyond $20,000 is Medaglia d'Oro. Of course, if given my choice and $40,000... I would go to Cherokee Run in a heartbeat. (I don't have $40,000, so I went to the next best thing... Kafwain.) My second choice... maybe Speightstown.
Johar may provide the absolute best match on paper. If I were only putting together matings on paper, he would be "it" hands down. Unfortunately, I have not seen him and I am not certain how he will be recieved, initially, in the sales ring. However, your mares have such a good page, as long as you have a quality individual by a sire who elicits hope... I think you will do well. With this in mind, Johar may be an option.
One additional piece of info... the fairly decent runner, Eddington, is out of a Chief's Crown mare, so perhaps the Unbridleds could be a consideration.
As for Ms. Isadora, there were some things to like with Ms Agatha, however Deputy Commander can be hit or miss. Virtually any Northern Dancer line should work... but, as Miswaki tended to gravitate toward smaller stature, I think one would be wise to try to work with the larger lines (or at least individuals) of Northern Dancer.
The super horse Galileo is out of a Miswaki mare, so perhaps a son of Sadler's Wells (or a son of El Prado) may be interesting. Again, there are a few to choose from, and they may even sell well by the time you get ready to sell yours.
The Hail to Reason line stallions have always seemed to have an affinity for both Miswaki and his genetically close relative Woodman, so a stallion from these lines may work well, unfortunately they don't sell well. More Than Ready would probably be the choice of the lot, but you would need them to keep running... and he needs a pretty good sized mare (I'm sorry, but I cannot remember what Ms. Isadora looks like...)
Of course, the current fashion is A.P. Indy over a Mr. P mare. I would be terribly tempted to try to get to the already booked-full Jumpstart. He has the size and conformation to lead one to believe he can handle any negatives the inbreeding might bring, and I would be intrigued because his second dam is a full to Miswaki. It is pretty tight... but interesting as well. Besides, he is a wonderful specimen and I believe he will continue to be a sales sire until his 3 yr olds prove they cannot run... but, I have a feeling they will.
Another one which would interest me somewhat would be Tactical Cat. Of all the Storm Cats, I think he would be my choice for her. However, again, as with More Than Ready... perhaps more so... it is hard to predict what the commercial viability of the Tactical Cat's in year 2006 or 2007.
Again, you have wonderful mares to work with, you simply need them to give birth to quality individuals. I am decidedly envious.
Good luck!
Thank you for all the kind comments on my mares. They wre great fun to race and I think if I choose the right stallions they will produce good runners. Both mares were very sound as race horses, they have good bone. Princess toes in slightly. So far the foals have been correct, but late maturing. They don't look that great as yearlings but look wonderful as 2 yr olds. Princess has a good temperment and tends to produce a very large foal. So far I like her Swain 2-yr old the best and I expect her to have a good 2006. Isadora's foals have a difficult temperment much like Eloise. Isadora has a weanling Mizzen Mast colt that I really like, but is he commercial? I end up breeding to horses I like and that might not be so good. Isadora is in foal to Holy Bull and I do like Johar but does anyone buy turf breeding? Princess has a Marquetry filly and is in foal to Crafty Prospector. Tactical Cat might be a good choice. I didn't like the Tabasco Cat. He was very big and the least correct of her foal. Thanks for the help. I'm stuck racing in WV good money but no one to talk to.
It is very easy to be complimentary on your mares...
I hope Mizzen Mast will be somewhat commercial, as I have two on the way. I think the success of Alphabet Soup will help, as will the fact that he won impressively on the dirt, while showing a good turn of foot. Of course, if his foals get some of his looks it should help as well.
I do have reservations about Johar, but Elusive Quality pretty much put everyone on alert. If you remember, people at first dismissed him because of his preference for turf... well, look where he is now. With Johar, if he gets impressive foals, I think the market will say, "...hmm... son of Gone West with a good pedigree..." and not help but be reminded of Elusive Quality. However, it does come down to how the foals look.
Funny, we apparently think somewhat alike... I too like Holy Bull, Marquetry, and Crafty Prospector... however, I don't have the luxury of being able to race the foals from these matings, so I cannot use them because they are very "spotty" in the sales ring. They get runners, but don't seem to get respect. I think you may also be being a little hard on the Tabasco cat... when I saw him, I saw his sire. That boy was a Tabasco Cat... in fact I quipped that I would be scared he would share the same mentality as "dad"...
I also like Swain, and if you need info on him, ask LSB, she has made herself an expert on everything Swain. Of course, the fact she owns the dam of one of Swain's best, if not the best, runners.
Good luck with those mares... and remember if they ever need a home, I can have a trailer at the farm in very short order.
I hope Mizzen Mast will be somewhat commercial, as I have two on the way. I think the success of Alphabet Soup will help, as will the fact that he won impressively on the dirt, while showing a good turn of foot. Of course, if his foals get some of his looks it should help as well.
I do have reservations about Johar, but Elusive Quality pretty much put everyone on alert. If you remember, people at first dismissed him because of his preference for turf... well, look where he is now. With Johar, if he gets impressive foals, I think the market will say, "...hmm... son of Gone West with a good pedigree..." and not help but be reminded of Elusive Quality. However, it does come down to how the foals look.
Funny, we apparently think somewhat alike... I too like Holy Bull, Marquetry, and Crafty Prospector... however, I don't have the luxury of being able to race the foals from these matings, so I cannot use them because they are very "spotty" in the sales ring. They get runners, but don't seem to get respect. I think you may also be being a little hard on the Tabasco cat... when I saw him, I saw his sire. That boy was a Tabasco Cat... in fact I quipped that I would be scared he would share the same mentality as "dad"...
I also like Swain, and if you need info on him, ask LSB, she has made herself an expert on everything Swain. Of course, the fact she owns the dam of one of Swain's best, if not the best, runners.
Good luck with those mares... and remember if they ever need a home, I can have a trailer at the farm in very short order.
Thanks again for all the selection ideas and the whys. I hope the racing scene is quiet enough that I can go to Ky. next week. I will definately be looking at Tactical Cat for Princess and Jump Start for Isadora if he is available. Do you have any thoughts on Perfect Soul? He might be a nice Sadlers Wells, but is he commercial? I hope to do more selling and less racing, but it seems I always end up with some that won't sell because of a vet issue that never affects them for racing. The experts told me Isadora would be to small to race well and Princess probably not stay sound to make the races. I still have the letters as well as comments made by sale vets on yearlings I never put to auction after the initial x-rays. Perhaps a good tropic for another discussion.
Hi Eloise,
I really like Yes It's True for the Chief's Crown mare; there's an affinity between the mares damsire Nasty And Bold and a mare named Udaipur, who is in both the direct female line of the Shuvee (GI) and Top Flight (GI) winning dam Ms Eloise and the 2nd damsire (Hawaii) of Gamely H (GI) winner Miss Josh.
This is significant because Udaipur's full brother Umidwar is found on the female line of Missy Baba, who has shown a affinity with both Chief's Crown (see the GI Quality Runner/Sire of an Irish Classic Winner Key Of Luck) and his sire Danzig (see the Champion Anabaa and the good sires Honor Grades and Deerhound).
Now we must ask the Question: "In what context has inbreeding to the full brother and sister Umidwar and Udaipur worked?" The answer is in the context of Icecapade, a stallion with a strong affinity with Udaipur and/or her brother reflected in the major GIWs Wild Again (Icecapade/Udaipur), Wild Rush (Icecapade/Udaipur/Umidwar), Wild Spirit (Icecapade/Udaipur/Umidwar), and Yes It's True (Icecapade/Umidwar).
This affinity is backed up by the success of crossing Icecapade and Udaipur/Umidwar's relative Verrierres (both crossed Blandford and Uganda), which has produced a Multiple GIW (Rocking Trick) from only 2 examples in the database.
So, Wild Rush and Wild Spirit prove the wisdon of inbreeding to Udaipur and Umidwar in the context of Icecapade; but how has Icecapade and the source of Icecapade (Clever Trick) in Yes It's True cross with the damsire and grandsire of Princess Eloise? The answer is quite nicely:
Clever Trick and Danzig have combined in the GIWs Caller One, Elegant Fashion, and Peeping Tom.
And Clever Trick and Nasty And Bold have combined in the GI Producer Artful Pleasure (the dam of Peeping Tom!, thus that GIW combined Danzig, Nasty And Bold, and Clever Trick just like the result of Yes It's True-Princess Eloise would).
I guess the problem some might have with Yes It's True is the distance thing; but nothing says you can't wait to see how Proud Accolade goes in the Hollywood Futurity (GI) and I wouldn't let something like that stop me if the conformational match-up is also good.
Johar is a young stallion I really like relative to his fee; but inbreeding to Sec. through Chief's Crown is pretty much uncharted territory. Perfect Soul is getting better outside support than I expected, but I'm not sure about how they'll sell and I don't like the idea of inbreeding to Secretariat through a daughter like Ball Chairman, who showed nothing in her race record to indicated class and who hasn't produced much besides Pefect Soul himself (I'm not saying the dams weak enough that it turns me off the stallion in general, just that it turns me off the idea of inbreeding to Sec. through him).
-llbean
I really like Yes It's True for the Chief's Crown mare; there's an affinity between the mares damsire Nasty And Bold and a mare named Udaipur, who is in both the direct female line of the Shuvee (GI) and Top Flight (GI) winning dam Ms Eloise and the 2nd damsire (Hawaii) of Gamely H (GI) winner Miss Josh.
This is significant because Udaipur's full brother Umidwar is found on the female line of Missy Baba, who has shown a affinity with both Chief's Crown (see the GI Quality Runner/Sire of an Irish Classic Winner Key Of Luck) and his sire Danzig (see the Champion Anabaa and the good sires Honor Grades and Deerhound).
Now we must ask the Question: "In what context has inbreeding to the full brother and sister Umidwar and Udaipur worked?" The answer is in the context of Icecapade, a stallion with a strong affinity with Udaipur and/or her brother reflected in the major GIWs Wild Again (Icecapade/Udaipur), Wild Rush (Icecapade/Udaipur/Umidwar), Wild Spirit (Icecapade/Udaipur/Umidwar), and Yes It's True (Icecapade/Umidwar).
This affinity is backed up by the success of crossing Icecapade and Udaipur/Umidwar's relative Verrierres (both crossed Blandford and Uganda), which has produced a Multiple GIW (Rocking Trick) from only 2 examples in the database.
So, Wild Rush and Wild Spirit prove the wisdon of inbreeding to Udaipur and Umidwar in the context of Icecapade; but how has Icecapade and the source of Icecapade (Clever Trick) in Yes It's True cross with the damsire and grandsire of Princess Eloise? The answer is quite nicely:
Clever Trick and Danzig have combined in the GIWs Caller One, Elegant Fashion, and Peeping Tom.
And Clever Trick and Nasty And Bold have combined in the GI Producer Artful Pleasure (the dam of Peeping Tom!, thus that GIW combined Danzig, Nasty And Bold, and Clever Trick just like the result of Yes It's True-Princess Eloise would).
I guess the problem some might have with Yes It's True is the distance thing; but nothing says you can't wait to see how Proud Accolade goes in the Hollywood Futurity (GI) and I wouldn't let something like that stop me if the conformational match-up is also good.
Johar is a young stallion I really like relative to his fee; but inbreeding to Sec. through Chief's Crown is pretty much uncharted territory. Perfect Soul is getting better outside support than I expected, but I'm not sure about how they'll sell and I don't like the idea of inbreeding to Secretariat through a daughter like Ball Chairman, who showed nothing in her race record to indicated class and who hasn't produced much besides Pefect Soul himself (I'm not saying the dams weak enough that it turns me off the stallion in general, just that it turns me off the idea of inbreeding to Sec. through him).
-llbean
It's also interesting you like the Swain foal best because his grandsire Blushing Groom is the other major source of Udaipur's brother Umidwar besides Missy Baba. Actually the dam of Blushing Groom is related in an interesting way to the 4th dam (The Blonde) of Princess Eloise as both are by Wild Risk and have either Umidwar or his full sister Udaipur close up in the dam.
I would still rank Yes It's True over a return visit to Swain on paper at least, though.
-llbean
I would still rank Yes It's True over a return visit to Swain on paper at least, though.
-llbean