horse racing and drugs

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bdw0617
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horse racing and drugs

Postby bdw0617 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:06 pm

http://www.wtvq.com/midatlantic/tvq/new ... -0012.html


very good read.

a couple of thoughts be me

“If you lose money in a gambling enterprise you automatically assume you didn’t lose because you are unlucky or you made a poor selection off the program, you lost because somebody cheated.”


I can just speak for myself. Me as the handicapper asks that if you are going to do something, do it consistantly. if you are going to cheat, if you are cheating, as long as the outcome is the same I'm good.

but my conern about drugs is moreso the bred itself. making horses walking cocktails is not good for the bred, it's not good for anyting in the long run, and we have horses that because of the dependance on legal an dillegal drugs, drugs you have to have out the horses system by X date, drugs that help with breathing, whatever, we are basically useless outside the united states, which on the higher level of things, limits what a horse can do.

“There’s a saying amongst trainers sometimes if you are winning at less than 10 per cent you can’t train but if you’re above 30 per cent you’re cheating.”


that's just silly.


Through the first nine months of 2007, more than 9000 drug tests were performed on horses competing on the Commonwealth’s eight racetracks, only 37 of those tests came back positive. Which means more than 99.97 per cent of the horses tested came back clean. The problem is the even small numbers of positive tests do the sport major damage. Nuckols says, “When those come up I think it’s bad for the industry as a whole and unfortunately some very public people that train very big stables have had positive convictions.”



here is the million dollar question:

does that mean that there are no drugs in horse racing, or that trainers just are better at not getting caught, then drug labs are at testing.

I can tell you from a human persepctive, drug tests are a waste of time unless youa re doing a hair or blood test. a piss test can be passed by anyone with any resemblance of intelligence with 24 hours of notice. if you get caught with dirty pee, it doesn't mean you were doing drugs (it does), it means you were not smart enough to not get caught.

out of all (human) drug tests, 1 out of 10 are false positives and 1 out of 4 are false negatives. that is a verified fact. meaning out of 4 tests that are done and come back negative for drugs, the person was really using, he just found a way to mask

is it different for horses?

also, I know when I complain about drugs, it's not just the ones that are illegal. dependance on any drug is not good for horses long term
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Postby winds » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:03 pm

bdw,

They give the horses both piss and blood tests. Who ever is with the horse in the test barn has to sign for both on a label and the label is put on the samples.

I'm not surprised by the article, most horsemen are on the up and up, it's just the few who try to cheat the system that make it bad for everyone else.

A trainer I sent horses to years ago went from an honest trainer to a cheater and now not only is his career ruined but he ruined his assistant trainers career too and the two of them are now sitting out 120 days in NY. This was for milkshaking, what did them in is they fought it and they didn't just recently get caught, they got caught in 2003! Of course the trainer was out of the country at the time, but the rules are he is ultimately responsible. He has gone from around 60 head of horses to 16. He had a pretty good win percentage back in the late 80's early 90's, had an eclipse winning filly to what he has become now. Of course I'm talking about Gary Sciacca.

I love Gary's family, his wife and kids are awesome, but Gary got full of himself and went from a caring horseman to a cheater after Saratoga Dew left his barn. He had some nice horses for us, but didn't listen to the owner of Dr. Kiernan to take the horse out of training and he worked him 5/8's and his leg snapped in 2 places. Of course he was destroyed. It took the owner 3 months to get over it. He took his horses from Gary and gave them to Allen Jerkens/Jimmy Jerkens and has had steady success ever since. The highs with Gary were heady, but the lows were devestating.

So, MOST trainers are on the up and up. Some are cheaters all the time, others become cheaters, but now the industry is starting to apply hurting penalties on the cheaters so maybe it won't be as previlant.

winds

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Postby bdw0617 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:07 pm

very good post winds and sorry to hear about your friend.

my thing is, drugs just doesn't mean illegal drugs. the legal ones can be just as bad/addicting/harmful long term.

when I say I don't want drugs, I don't mean cobra venom.. I mean ALL DRUGS
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Postby Rokeby Forever » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:12 pm

I think more trainers use drugs on themselves than on their horses. Ask John Parisella, Jan Nerud, Frank LaBoccetta Jr, Butch Lenzini, Todd Schlessinger...
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Postby winds » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:23 pm

bdw,

Some drugs are theraputic, but after the treatment has run it's course the drugs should be discontinued. I hate hearing a horse has been on bute for a prolonged period of time. After a race or a work to take the stiffness out is fine, but to keep them on it everyday, no.

We should treat our horses like we would be treated after physical competition, help get the soreness of the competition out but then no more bute (or with us asprin, tylenol etc). No steroids for anything other than theraputic, but if they need the steroids for that reason, then they should be on the farm. When they can train with out, then they can go back to the track.

Drugs are good if handled properly and used for what they are perscribed for, other than that, I agree with you, they should be stopped.

winds

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Postby casallc » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:53 am

Rokeby Forever wrote:I think more trainers use drugs on themselves than on their horses. Ask John Parisella, Jan Nerud, Frank LaBoccetta Jr, Butch Lenzini, Todd Schlessinger...


I would never give a horse any drug I had not taken myself.

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Postby Archer » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:26 am

casallc wrote: I would never give a horse any drug I had not taken myself.


It's this kind of talk that makes me want to take you off Equipoise.

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Postby zinn21 » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:29 am

I think the use of performance enhancers, pain killers, joint injectibles is more widespread than one might think. I do think California racing is heading in the right direction with regards to medication use.

In a correspondence dialogue the other day with a member of the CHRB medication oversight team, we discussed the rampant use of injectibles and the member had this to say, " Developing a regulatory strategy to control judgement calls is very difficult. An education process may be the best approach." Certainly a step in the right direction but I feel it should illegal to inject any joint where a known chip exists.

Nerve blocking, another method for masking pain should additionally be banned. I don't know how many arthritic horses we nurtured along that were claimed from our barn; nerve blocked; run a few times, perhaps win then never seen again.

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Postby Ryeno » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:07 pm

Rokeby Forever wrote:I think more trainers use drugs on themselves than on their horses. Ask John Parisella, Jan Nerud, Frank LaBoccetta Jr, Butch Lenzini, Todd Schlessinger...



Is that really something that should be posted on a forum?


Not sure someone posting under an anonymous name makes it right/


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Postby Tucumcari » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:16 pm

casallc wrote:
Rokeby Forever wrote:I think more trainers use drugs on themselves than on their horses. Ask John Parisella, Jan Nerud, Frank LaBoccetta Jr, Butch Lenzini, Todd Schlessinger...


I would never give a horse any drug I had not taken myself.

Agreed... for the most part...
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Postby Tiz » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:31 pm

Couldn't agree more with bdw. Zero tolerance for drugs, performance enhancers, anabolic steroids, hormones, cortisone, nerving, everything. Give the horse a fair shot to take care of himself on the race course.

All the attention given to track surfaces just distracts from the real problem, maybe even intentionally.

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Postby winds » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:32 pm

Ryeno,

Roke only mentioned the well documented people with drug problems. Butch Lenzini committed suicide because he couldn't kick the habit. When he wasn't under the influence, he was a good horseman and trainer. I will say that his horses never suffered because his father John Lenzini, also a good horseman and now deceased (natural causes) took over Butch's horses.

John was known to be cheap, but he did feed his horses well and they were his first priority. John was old school and didn't use the vets too much.

winds

PS - I know because I was stabled in the same barn with him and we became friends.

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Postby Ryeno » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:13 pm

Winds,

I never knew these people had drug problems.........peoples personal lives/lifestyle choices are just that THEIR choices and i find it inappropriate to be brought up on a public forum that has to do with horse racing.

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Postby bdw0617 » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:06 pm

Imagine if you, at the age of one was put on asthma medication, even though you didn't have asthma. Then when you started really scooting around, they started giving you pain relievers, by 4 you wre taking a BC a day, not because you needed it, but that was part of your parents "training program".

could you be an athletic person? sure. but would you be screwed in due time? you bet. your body, the human or the equine body is the work of thousands/hundres of thousands of years of genetic mutatation and has they both have extremely complex immune and nervous systems, which should not be hampered with for the hell of it.


advancement in medicane is a good thing. if you have a horse that NEEDS lasix because he is a bleeder, I'm not going to raise a gripe. But when you keep him ON it because you CAN, you are doing more harm than good.
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Postby Tucumcari » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:29 am

bdw0617 wrote:Imagine if you, at the age of one was put on asthma medication, even though you didn't have asthma. Then when you started really scooting around, they started giving you pain relievers, by 4 you wre taking a BC a day, not because you needed it, but that was part of your parents "training program".

could you be an athletic person? sure. but would you be screwed in due time? you bet. your body, the human or the equine body is the work of thousands/hundres of thousands of years of genetic mutatation and has they both have extremely complex immune and nervous systems, which should not be hampered with for the hell of it.


advancement in medicane is a good thing. if you have a horse that NEEDS lasix because he is a bleeder, I'm not going to raise a gripe. But when you keep him ON it because you CAN, you are doing more harm than good.


I don't know that I agree with all of that... but it seems like too much energy to try to point out why...And I am not that liberal with meds. I hate hormones. Lasix... we need it. If I can run a non bleeder on it and help it avoid a little apin when they do bleed then I will. And in CA we can. 3cc for a first time starter is not much... anyway. I am trying not to get into this.
Proverbs 31:8

"...stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all those who are destitute.."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawYXs2e ... re=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIASWv9GYC8