Tizbud

[llbean]

Tizbud is scheduled to run in the Cal Cup Classic again.

[Mahubah]

We'll see how he does. Wonder if they'll retire him after this season or keep him in training at age 6 to try to pick up a graded win with him? I would imagine he'd retire to stud in California regardless.

[Sam]

I would imagine he'd retire to stud in California regardless.

Undoubtedly. Tiznow went to KY, Budroyale's in WA. We get Tizbud. Isn't there another colt out there somewhere too?

[Mahubah]

Don't think so. Cee's Song's last Cee's Tizzy foal was Tizamazing, a 2002 filly who has yet to start so far as I know -- anyone know where she is? Cee's Song's 2003 foal was a colt by Storm Cat.

Now here's something that has me scratching my head. You have a mare who has produced a Horse of the Year, two G2 winners, and a graded-placed stakes winner by a sire who currently goes for what, $30,000? Her last two fillies sold for $950,000 and $1,000,000 at Keeneland -- pretty nice return on the stud fee. And the new owner promptly goes and sends her to Storm Cat, who stands for $500,000, meaning that the next foal would have to sell for close to $1.5 million to make the same profit margin. Seems like it would make more sense just to stick with the proven cross, which can be had for a lot less money

[Sam]

Now here's something that has me scratching my head. You have a mare who has produced a Horse of the Year, two G2 winners, and a graded-placed stakes winner by a sire who currently goes for what, $30,000? Her last two fillies sold for $950,000 and $1,000,000 at Keeneland -- pretty nice return on the stud fee. And the new owner promptly goes and sends her to Storm Cat, who stands for $500,000, meaning that the next foal would have to sell for close to $1.5 million to make the same profit margin. Seems like it would make more sense just to stick with the proven cross, which can be had for a lot less money

Kneejerk reaction to a fluke success. I'm sure Cee's Tizzy was breed to a lot of Seattle Slew line mares ... how many of them had the success that Cee's Song had?

The thinking is akin to "Wow, look what she did with that blue collar stud, imagine what she could do with a REAL stallion".

Take a look at the studs Miss Snowflake was bred to immediately after she had Snow Chief. A pair of Alydars, A Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, and Seattle Slew and all but one of the Alydars and the Bid were UNRACED.

She still got to decent stallions after that (More Than Ready, Smart Strike), but nothing like the quality of Reflected Glory.

On the one hand, I've never much cared for breeding a mare to the same stallion more than 5 times. However, you do have to stick with what works. If they wanted to send Cee's Song to a high power stallion, I would have found one with similar breeding to Cee's Tizzy (not a direct tail male Relaunch, but one that had him fairly close up and hopefully carried The Axe as well).

That's why these mares that hit with horses like Cee's Tizzy are so hard to match when they climb the stallion ranks. They reach a point where the stud fee you had been using is considered "underbreeding" her and yet there ARE no stallions in the higher price ranges that fit.

My favourite example is Hollywood Wildcat. She's been to Sadler's Wells the last couple years just because there isn't much over here that fits her (short of Storm Cat). My first choice was Diesis, Vincent shook his head saying they'd love to get her, but Cowan would never do it.

Personally, I would have loved to seen what Cee's Song could do with Valid Expectations.

[Sam]

BTW, there is another Cee's Tizzy/Cee's Song colt. Her very first was a 1992 colt named Ceebett.

Wonder what happened to him?

[Jessi P]

CEE'S SONG, 1986, Seattle Song- Lonely Dancer by Nice Dancer.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1992 Ceebett,c,Cee's Tizzy 1 6 0 0 0 1,050 ( 70) 0.11
North America Dirt Sprints 3 0 0 0 1,050 ( 70)
North America Dirt Routes 3 0 0 0 0 ( 64)
DP = 7-1-10-2-0 DI = 1.86 CD = 0.65

[Sam]

CEE'S SONG, 1986, Seattle Song- Lonely Dancer by Nice Dancer.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1992 Ceebett,c,Cee's Tizzy 1 6 0 0 0 1,050 ( 70) 0.11
North America Dirt Sprints 3 0 0 0 1,050 ( 70)
North America Dirt Routes 3 0 0 0 0 ( 64)
DP = 7-1-10-2-0 DI = 1.86 CD = 0.65

You know, I wish the APR would update gender on these things. I totally forgot that Budroyale was a gelding and the database has this Ceebett listed as a gelding as well.

I'd still like to know where he went.

[st. louis kid]

If i were fortunate enough to ever own a broodmare of this quallity, i would not hesitate to send her to storm cat. Very realistic to sell for 1.5 million and who knows, under right situation could sell for 4 or 5 mil. You can't hit a homerun if you always bunt.

[Sam]

If i were fortunate enough to ever own a broodmare of this quallity, i would not hesitate to send her to storm cat. Very realistic to sell for 1.5 million and who knows, under right situation could sell for 4 or 5 mil. You can't hit a homerun if you always bunt.

And that is the difference in mentality to someone who breeds to sell and someone who breeds to race.

Breed to sell, you look for what is going to get the best price.

Breed to race, HOPEFULLY you are looking for a good complementary match, regardless of stud fee.

That's why we always asked "breed to race or breed to sell" when I was at Werk. Some stallions just don't sell and if you were looking for a yearling, they wouldn't be worth recommending. Breeding to race on the other hand, they made great runners and would always get rec'd.

Goes back to the AI argument. Do you breed the best stallion match to your mare regardless of stud fee, or do you breed to the best stallion you can get to within shipping distanct constraints even if he isn't really the best stallion for your mare?

[llbean]

The Relaunch/Seattle Slew nick is powerful enough that you have to question going away from it just to get fashion. Plus it's really doubtful Cee's Song was throwing to Crimson Satan's dam Papila anyway (except maybe in Tizdubai, and that's like one out of 10 foals).

Cee's Tizzy also got G2 winner Hot Market from another daughter of Seattle Song. It might be a mistake to overestimate how many Seattle Slew line mare CT got; any SS line mares sent to him because of Tizow haven't produced foals to race yet.

An advantage Seattle Song has over other sons of SS in the crossing with Cee's Tizzy department is the Seattle Song's dam Incantation is from the same Clonaslee (21-a) line as In Reality and and Cee's Tizzy traces to a form of the Maid of Mashem line. 21-a and Maid of Mashem have an affinity.

See the following PedigreePost article:

http://www.pedigreepost.com/archives/Th ... ntura.html

-llbean

[Mahubah]

While the database here isn't complete by any means, it has about 360 foals listed for Cee's Tizzy and only 18 of them are out of Seattle Slew-line mares -- and half of those are out of Cee's Song. Several more are either two-year-olds of this year or younger, so it's hard to draw too many conclusions. Cee's Tizzy has only one stakes winner from a Seattle Slew-line mare other than Cee's Song, but at least from what's on the database, he has seen only three such daughters as mates and has gotten SWs from two of them. Promising, if hardly conclusive.

If I remember my peek at equibase's sire summary right, Cee's Tizzy has 86 two-year-olds of 2004, which would be the first crop to result from matings influenced by Tiznow's success. Since his progeny have typically not shown their best until late three-year-olds or later, we won't know for a while yet whether the Cee's Tizzy/Cee's Song pairing was a fluke or not. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to repeat that particular mating just because it's been done so many times before, though; after all, G2 winner Tizdubai was the 8th foal to result from that cross.

[Sam]

I'm losing all sense of time out in this desert. Guess I was thinking it had been longer since Tiznow was a 3yo. Figured there'd be more Slew line mares in Tizzy's '02 and '03 crops.

My thing with the multiple breedbacks is that by the 5th foal, you should have at least 2 starters and can kind of tell whether they are proving to be good physical specimens with potential.

I don't have a problem with going back to a stallion a couple times, I just think you should at least make an attempt to find other stallions if for no other reason, if you hit with a potential blue hen, the subsequent fillies have a little diversity in their bloodlines.

I'm not making any sense.. Yankees are playing Boston and DAMNIT, WHY CAN'T WE HIT WAKEFIELD!!

[Dave C]

Cee's Song is an excellent example of why proven stallions such as Storm Cat and A P Indy have a difficult time improving their mares (AEI vs CI). Without Tiznow and Budroyale, Cee's Song would never have been sent to Storm Cat. But what kind of a horse is Storm Cat going to have to through to improve on Tiznow and Budroyale. Reality is, if the foal shows any soundness or talent (lack thereof) issues, it will be retired to the breeding shed so that the owner can recover some of their investment. The AEI to CI ratio is a very useful tool for assessing a stallions performance, but it also can be very misleading if you accept it without critical analysis.

[Sam]

The AEI to CI ratio is a very useful tool for assessing a stallions performance, but it also can be very misleading if you accept it without critical analysis.

Not to mention the fact that, for stallions like Storm Cat, the numbers gets skewed by breeders with fillies who might have a little bit of talent, but are worth more in the shed than she is on the track so they won't try real hard to turn her into a race horse.