This came up in another thread while we were talking about 2yr old sales. I have a belief that Lasix has played a big role in creating the apathy that is shown toward our sport these days. I'm not a vet so I may be off base here, but I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts.
I believe that what separated the great horses of the past (Secretariat, Bid, Slew and those before them) from the rest of the horses was their ability to breathe. It seems that since we decided that every horse needs Lasix, we haven't seen a dominant horse or a Triple Crown winner. You can argue Cigar and I'll accept that but I don't put him in the company above. We see dominance in spurts but not over the long haul.
My thought is that Lasix has leveled the playing field. I think that now most horses can breathe equally during the race. It really is the horse that wakes up feeling the best that day or the horse who gets the best trip that wins. We've removed the natural limiting factor that produced dominance.
Now to the apathy part. Much like other sports, I think you need a polarizing figure to generate interest. Growing up an Eagles fan, I hated everything to do with the Cowboys (with the exception of the cheerleaders of course). Others around the country loved them. But either way-you watched-you went to games-you bought merchandise-you had an interest in the outcome. When Spectacular Bid was going off at 1 to 9 and Delp was yelling "go bet" half the people were hoping he could win yet another race. The other half wanted him to lose. But, both sides showed up and cared.
That is why I believe the country only cares about the Triple Crown. People are dying to have a horse to fall in love with. Why do you think there was so much interest in Barbaro? Does anyone believe he was a superhorse in the making? People hope each spring that a horse will emerge that they can latch on to. But that horse has to start with the Triple Crown. As soon as he loses one of those races, it's over till next year.
Have Lasix and other drugs ruined racing?
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louis finochio
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One size doesnt fit all, ala Lasix. The right combination of herbs will blow Lasix off the map.
Research the pedigrees of the past TC winners, you will find all those Winners had those old NP sire lines in their pedigrees that produced soundness. Those TC winners developed a fan base that created an interst inour sport.
I have seen the changes in our sport, some good & bad. You are right when you said the fans will come to see a super star, but today our super stars our plagued by to many unproven stallions & mares, that has left its medicority hoof prints on the breed.
Research the pedigrees of the past TC winners, you will find all those Winners had those old NP sire lines in their pedigrees that produced soundness. Those TC winners developed a fan base that created an interst inour sport.
I have seen the changes in our sport, some good & bad. You are right when you said the fans will come to see a super star, but today our super stars our plagued by to many unproven stallions & mares, that has left its medicority hoof prints on the breed.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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geowarrior
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I don't know that there's been any research to say what the effect of Lasix might be. I do know that I find it somehow offensive that although I know every horse doesn't bleed, every horse apparently needs Lasix, and in States where it's required to be specified on the chart, every horse apparently needs Bute. So every horse that's racing is masking pain? Of course, we need the Bute especially because how else could we keep running injured horses in claiming races with the hopes of getting rid of them?
The legalized drugs alone negatively affect the perception of American horse racing abroad, but American horse racing doesn't apparently care about that - unless it were to affect the sales, which it doesn't seem to have done so far.
The negative perception of American racing was brought into focus more than I think many people realize by the death of George Washington at Monmouth. Racehorses are revered in Britain, Ireland and elsewhere far more than they are here, and Gorgeous George was one of the more charismatic young horses of recent years. Although most of the blame abroad was placed on Monmouth and the track (which I think is completely unfair), the whole incident brought discussion of racing in the U.S. in general, and the issue of drugs in American Racing was front and center. And recently there's been talk of Britain holding its own Breeder's Cup type of event - the resentment at the Breeders Cup being referred to as the 'World Championships' is building.
I don't think you'll see many representatives coming over in future years for BC races, despite the expansion of turf races in the BC program. I don't think the industry cares about that either.
In my opinion the industry as a whole really doesn't care about the horses, the public doesn't know about the horses and therefore doesn't care about them much either, or some members of the public know just enough about racing to think it's cruel. Only occasionally does a racehorse catch the attention of the public. The press only cares about stakes horses, and although there are all kinds of interesting stories out there, all the publications focus on the same stories and all are non-critical. Their writers probably haven't watched a claiming race in years.
The only reason to have live racing is to simulcast it, and so if a way could be found to randomly generate computerized racers, horses would be obsolete altogether. Attendance at most tracks is diminished, and all the focus is on getting slots, which will do nothing for the sport, and may only be a temporary patch for the industry.
In other words, in my opinion, drugs are just the tip of the iceberg. The industry doesn't care about its reputation at home or abroad, doesn't care about the horses, doesn't care about itself. And nobody outside horse racing in the U.S. cares about horse racing. So unless there's a move for radical change, including drugs, issues related to claiming, public perception and a whole host of other problems, horse racing is doomed in the U.S.
The legalized drugs alone negatively affect the perception of American horse racing abroad, but American horse racing doesn't apparently care about that - unless it were to affect the sales, which it doesn't seem to have done so far.
The negative perception of American racing was brought into focus more than I think many people realize by the death of George Washington at Monmouth. Racehorses are revered in Britain, Ireland and elsewhere far more than they are here, and Gorgeous George was one of the more charismatic young horses of recent years. Although most of the blame abroad was placed on Monmouth and the track (which I think is completely unfair), the whole incident brought discussion of racing in the U.S. in general, and the issue of drugs in American Racing was front and center. And recently there's been talk of Britain holding its own Breeder's Cup type of event - the resentment at the Breeders Cup being referred to as the 'World Championships' is building.
I don't think you'll see many representatives coming over in future years for BC races, despite the expansion of turf races in the BC program. I don't think the industry cares about that either.
In my opinion the industry as a whole really doesn't care about the horses, the public doesn't know about the horses and therefore doesn't care about them much either, or some members of the public know just enough about racing to think it's cruel. Only occasionally does a racehorse catch the attention of the public. The press only cares about stakes horses, and although there are all kinds of interesting stories out there, all the publications focus on the same stories and all are non-critical. Their writers probably haven't watched a claiming race in years.
The only reason to have live racing is to simulcast it, and so if a way could be found to randomly generate computerized racers, horses would be obsolete altogether. Attendance at most tracks is diminished, and all the focus is on getting slots, which will do nothing for the sport, and may only be a temporary patch for the industry.
In other words, in my opinion, drugs are just the tip of the iceberg. The industry doesn't care about its reputation at home or abroad, doesn't care about the horses, doesn't care about itself. And nobody outside horse racing in the U.S. cares about horse racing. So unless there's a move for radical change, including drugs, issues related to claiming, public perception and a whole host of other problems, horse racing is doomed in the U.S.
Geo- no disputing that arrogance, indifference and mismanagement have truly damaged the sport in the US.
LF- I agree that rat breeding has also helped lead us into this downward spiral. But, it takes time to mis-breed an entire industry into mediocrity. Yet there seems to be a dramatic drop off in dominant horses right after the Bid, Slew, Affirmed run. Somewhere in there we started to turn to Lasix and other drugs a lot more. And I realize there are herbal alternatives, but the overall focus on medicating shifted. We changed the dynamics by introducing chemicals-natural or otherwise- into their systems. Those chemicals in turn also affect the breeding you speak of. They make mediocre horses win big races. That turns them into stallions when they would otherwise have retired to a horse show. It chemically alters the genetic pool causing issues that may manifest themselves in the lack of soundness we see now.
It all ties together and the spiral is going in the wrong direction. I just hope we wake up before the funeral.
LF- I agree that rat breeding has also helped lead us into this downward spiral. But, it takes time to mis-breed an entire industry into mediocrity. Yet there seems to be a dramatic drop off in dominant horses right after the Bid, Slew, Affirmed run. Somewhere in there we started to turn to Lasix and other drugs a lot more. And I realize there are herbal alternatives, but the overall focus on medicating shifted. We changed the dynamics by introducing chemicals-natural or otherwise- into their systems. Those chemicals in turn also affect the breeding you speak of. They make mediocre horses win big races. That turns them into stallions when they would otherwise have retired to a horse show. It chemically alters the genetic pool causing issues that may manifest themselves in the lack of soundness we see now.
It all ties together and the spiral is going in the wrong direction. I just hope we wake up before the funeral.
Bid...thanks for starting this discussion!
I went to Laurel yesterday and here are the dismal numbers regarding horses running on bleeder medication: out of 74 horses that ran on the 10 race card: only 1 ran without any medication (and placed third), 3 on Lasix only and the remaining 70 ran on Lasix with adjunct bleeder medication (95%!!!). That's sad but probably common nowadays. I remember the "old days" where meds were banned and learning how a Kentucky Derby winner was disqualified for having Bute in his system. I also remember when horses didn't need tongue ties and fancy bridles. Now mind you, some horses displace--but I wonder if that is becoming a genetic trait (and we can go on forever about breeding practices). My belief is that once use of meds was liberalized, it was anything goes, much like in the human world where it seems we have a pill for any kind of ailment nowadays. In horse racing today it's as if horses can't run without bleeder medication or other meds that dull the normal aches and pains of training and racing (which call for rest and recuperation and yet again, breeding for stoutness).
Which also leads me to argue that few have the patience to develop a race horse who goes on well into a 4 and 5-year old career. Owners are pushing for a quick return on investment. And some of the new breed of owners have no clue what it takes to get a horse to the track and keep it running/sound. I hate to say it, but some of these owners are the noveau rich who have money to burn and very little experience in owning a racehorse. Some of them feel their horse deserves to go to the Kentucky Derby no matter that the horse does better at the lower levels. They want the notoriety of having a horse in the Derby. Heck with the claimers--all the way to the top baby!
I could go on and on on this. I'm in Maryland probably watching the horse racing industry go into a coma. There are hardcore fans that go to the races, but it's not like it was back in its heyday here. They keep cutting dates, the promise of slots perhaps now tarnished with a looming economic downturn (or being in one now), farms are opening Pennsylvania branches, and MEC keeps bleeding money every fiscal quarter. The future does not look good here.
I'll quit now before I start crying.
I went to Laurel yesterday and here are the dismal numbers regarding horses running on bleeder medication: out of 74 horses that ran on the 10 race card: only 1 ran without any medication (and placed third), 3 on Lasix only and the remaining 70 ran on Lasix with adjunct bleeder medication (95%!!!). That's sad but probably common nowadays. I remember the "old days" where meds were banned and learning how a Kentucky Derby winner was disqualified for having Bute in his system. I also remember when horses didn't need tongue ties and fancy bridles. Now mind you, some horses displace--but I wonder if that is becoming a genetic trait (and we can go on forever about breeding practices). My belief is that once use of meds was liberalized, it was anything goes, much like in the human world where it seems we have a pill for any kind of ailment nowadays. In horse racing today it's as if horses can't run without bleeder medication or other meds that dull the normal aches and pains of training and racing (which call for rest and recuperation and yet again, breeding for stoutness).
Which also leads me to argue that few have the patience to develop a race horse who goes on well into a 4 and 5-year old career. Owners are pushing for a quick return on investment. And some of the new breed of owners have no clue what it takes to get a horse to the track and keep it running/sound. I hate to say it, but some of these owners are the noveau rich who have money to burn and very little experience in owning a racehorse. Some of them feel their horse deserves to go to the Kentucky Derby no matter that the horse does better at the lower levels. They want the notoriety of having a horse in the Derby. Heck with the claimers--all the way to the top baby!
I could go on and on on this. I'm in Maryland probably watching the horse racing industry go into a coma. There are hardcore fans that go to the races, but it's not like it was back in its heyday here. They keep cutting dates, the promise of slots perhaps now tarnished with a looming economic downturn (or being in one now), farms are opening Pennsylvania branches, and MEC keeps bleeding money every fiscal quarter. The future does not look good here.
I'll quit now before I start crying.
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Barbaro, I'm originally from South Jersey and have spent countless days at the MD tracks. Watched many of my own horses work at Bowie. I never got to see live racing there, but my uncle tells me of the days he took the train from Philly and got to Bowie in time to get the double in. Maryland is a case study on how greed and arrogance can kill racing. To think of all the history there. I feel for you my friend. New Jersey has been braindead for years.
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geowarrior
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I think the quick return on investment argument applies at all levels, not just at the Derby level. Nothing like a quick turnaround on an injured horse at the claiming level.
To respond specifically to the drug issue. There isn't research to show the long term effects of Bute and Lasix that I know of, but Bid you wouldn't be the first to relate the decline in physical attributes of the breed to the onset of common use of these chemicals. Certainly if we don't know that horses are prone to bleeding because they are on Lasix all the time, then we are likely putting more bleeders into the gene pool than we might be otherwise. Besides that, unless an owner is willing to give up the diuretic effect of Lasix and its resultant weight advantage, every horse, as Barbaro said, will be on Lasix. Unless some independent researcher is willing to take on and find funding for a long term study, nothing will happen from within racing to tell us the answer. In many states you can't tell if a horse is also on adjunct medication, nor is Bute listed. In fact racehorses are on so many things, legal and illegal, that I don't think such a study could be conducted within racing.
There isn't even a shred of concern about these drugs in the general literature that I've seen. There's slight concern about illegal drugs and steroids, with some measures being taken on that front. I haven't seen Bute mentioned at all, and the only mention of Lasix was the question of whether Curlin could be competitive without it in Dubai.
However, horses used to run more frequently and without Bute, so something has changed. And you know, there's so much emphasis on the track surfaces, nobody has to think about other contributing factors to unsoundness. Perhaps if we had taken the $10 mill or so per track that it's taken to get the various artificial tracks installed and done a drug study instead we'd be a lot better off.
To respond specifically to the drug issue. There isn't research to show the long term effects of Bute and Lasix that I know of, but Bid you wouldn't be the first to relate the decline in physical attributes of the breed to the onset of common use of these chemicals. Certainly if we don't know that horses are prone to bleeding because they are on Lasix all the time, then we are likely putting more bleeders into the gene pool than we might be otherwise. Besides that, unless an owner is willing to give up the diuretic effect of Lasix and its resultant weight advantage, every horse, as Barbaro said, will be on Lasix. Unless some independent researcher is willing to take on and find funding for a long term study, nothing will happen from within racing to tell us the answer. In many states you can't tell if a horse is also on adjunct medication, nor is Bute listed. In fact racehorses are on so many things, legal and illegal, that I don't think such a study could be conducted within racing.
There isn't even a shred of concern about these drugs in the general literature that I've seen. There's slight concern about illegal drugs and steroids, with some measures being taken on that front. I haven't seen Bute mentioned at all, and the only mention of Lasix was the question of whether Curlin could be competitive without it in Dubai.
However, horses used to run more frequently and without Bute, so something has changed. And you know, there's so much emphasis on the track surfaces, nobody has to think about other contributing factors to unsoundness. Perhaps if we had taken the $10 mill or so per track that it's taken to get the various artificial tracks installed and done a drug study instead we'd be a lot better off.
Louis, if you are still checking this thread, I'd appreciate your outline of breeding soundness. What sires today do you see, if any, that carry on those lines. I have my own thoughts and have tried to buy/breed that way with mixed results. I get the impression you've put some thought into it and I'm interested in your opinion.
Geo- I'm afraid you're correct in assuming we won't get a clean study. The only way to end it all is random testing all during training and stricter limits on what can be used. You know this unsoundness sounds a lot like pitchers in baseball. When I was a kid they threw 300 innings every year. Now 200 makes you an ironman. What am I saying- there's no drug problem in baseball.
Geo- I'm afraid you're correct in assuming we won't get a clean study. The only way to end it all is random testing all during training and stricter limits on what can be used. You know this unsoundness sounds a lot like pitchers in baseball. When I was a kid they threw 300 innings every year. Now 200 makes you an ironman. What am I saying- there's no drug problem in baseball.
Drugs, of all kinds have given Tb racing one big cumulative black eye. The general person doesn't know bute from lasix, but they "KNOW" the poor race horses are doped up drug fiends. I am surrounded by horse people and all but a handful of them said congratulations when I decided to get my filly and race her. The other responses are pretty much summed up with, why would you want to do it? Um, because the horse is the epitome of power and strength to me, and racing when done correctly and above the board is an adrenaline rush to be compared to little.
And I love herbal remedies as much as the next person, but unless all the horses in a race are given them, then we are sort of back at square one. They will and do give someone an advantage. So my mantra is race naked. Naked being absolutely drug free. At the minumum at least for thirty full days. I too love Spectacular Bid, in my eyes there is none better, but then I get some who will say ...."Oh don't you kid yourself that horse was juiced with something too"......WTH???? I own a Bid grand filly and if I juiced my loveable nut, I'd have pure unadultered danger on my hands. So I just can't even fathom the thought that the Bid was upped more than he would be naturally.
I wish the only real chances at true competition weren't going to be my filly's first start at 2 (though I am seeing more and more 2 year olds on Lasix on the card too) and racing abroad. Now don't get me wrong , if I had my own cargo jet I'd simply fly her where ever, but alas that is not the case.
I kind of hope with the supposed interventions in the sport being done or proposed, that maybe we will see races written for horses on NOTHING.
And I love herbal remedies as much as the next person, but unless all the horses in a race are given them, then we are sort of back at square one. They will and do give someone an advantage. So my mantra is race naked. Naked being absolutely drug free. At the minumum at least for thirty full days. I too love Spectacular Bid, in my eyes there is none better, but then I get some who will say ...."Oh don't you kid yourself that horse was juiced with something too"......WTH???? I own a Bid grand filly and if I juiced my loveable nut, I'd have pure unadultered danger on my hands. So I just can't even fathom the thought that the Bid was upped more than he would be naturally.
I wish the only real chances at true competition weren't going to be my filly's first start at 2 (though I am seeing more and more 2 year olds on Lasix on the card too) and racing abroad. Now don't get me wrong , if I had my own cargo jet I'd simply fly her where ever, but alas that is not the case.
I kind of hope with the supposed interventions in the sport being done or proposed, that maybe we will see races written for horses on NOTHING.
trying to come up with something brillant..... this may take a while. 
Spex, you might have hit on the solution. Nothing entices like money. So designate certain races as drug free. Pay outrageous purses for those. To qualify you have to submit to random tests at any time. Money always determines the market. This would create a market for clean horses. The big money people will want to be in those races and insist that their horses qualify thereby limiting the number of breeders, consignors and trainers who would risk medicating. The rest of racing will be forced to follow. I LIKE IT!!
Bid wrote:Barbaro, I'm originally from South Jersey and have spent countless days at the MD tracks. Watched many of my own horses work at Bowie. I never got to see live racing there, but my uncle tells me of the days he took the train from Philly and got to Bowie in time to get the double in. Maryland is a case study on how greed and arrogance can kill racing. To think of all the history there. I feel for you my friend. New Jersey has been braindead for years.
That's what saddens me Bid, all the history here in Maryland when it comes to racing. "The Cradle of American Racing" is limping into the sunset. I remember when I first got here I went and saw Bowie...now just a training track. I saw the grandstand before they tore it down (from a distance mind you). I took pictures of Pimlico when I went to the Preakness last year. I touched the track and recounted the horses that ran at Old Hilltop....I could see Seabscuit and War Admiral fighting it out. And I think of all the horses that have run at Laurel...Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Barbaro, Sir Barton, Kelso. The Graw is a memory as is Man O' War's Eastern Shore home...sigh. I feel old in a way....sorry for meandering down the sentimental highway....
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
dray33 wrote:Not to get off subject, but does lasix have anything to do with the amount of breathing problems that seem to crop up nowadays. I heard of a trainer that gives every horse in the barn the surgery.
But what causes horses to have breathing problems requiring surgery? Is the problem physiological or is it becoming a genetic predisposition? Just wondering....
A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio
Dray- I can't prove it but it's hard to believe that the drugs in general don't play some part. I have seen it run in families. I thought I heard that some Two Punch horses tended to develop it. I owned an Allen's Prospect that may have been the fastest horse in the country until he got to the track. His nerves would get the best of him and I could tell you before the race exactly where he was going to be on the track when he flipped and stopped breathing. You talk about disappointment. 
I've also heard that Lasix can cause a reaction called thumping. I know it tends to dull some horses who otherwise are fine. Look at what Lasix does to people. I can't believe draining your body of fluids in a big hurry just prior to the horse version of a marathon doesn't cause issues.
Spex- I hope those people are wrong about Bid being juiced. My childhood would be stolen. First the Easter Bunny - now this. I wouldn't be able to handle it.
I've also heard that Lasix can cause a reaction called thumping. I know it tends to dull some horses who otherwise are fine. Look at what Lasix does to people. I can't believe draining your body of fluids in a big hurry just prior to the horse version of a marathon doesn't cause issues.
Spex- I hope those people are wrong about Bid being juiced. My childhood would be stolen. First the Easter Bunny - now this. I wouldn't be able to handle it.
Yeah Bid, I have been told a horse I had "thumped" once... I have some experience with it. My filly, PERFECTLY NATURAL had breathing issues (she's a FORESTRY) and the myectomy has really helped. She used to hit a "wall" at 4 furlongs (lead all the way till then), but she has come on 2nd twice, and she has won her last 2. We gave her a break over the winter. I am really excited to see her make her 4 year-old debut (soon!). She has filled out, and is looking really good.