Mares who are "back in the knee".
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Mares who are "back in the knee".
Hi Guys, Please share your thoughts about breeding "back in the knee" mares. I have a mares who has the condition and I am wondering about her as a broodmare prospect . Is this condition one which is easily passed to the offspring ?
knee
This is the one trait that almost no one will take a chance on - trainers or buyers.
Pass on breeding these mares. It is almost ALWAYS passed on. Stay away from it at all costs. It isn't fair to the progeny or the mare.
Pass on breeding these mares. It is almost ALWAYS passed on. Stay away from it at all costs. It isn't fair to the progeny or the mare.
John Henry was back at the knees, but he wasn't exactly a commercial horse on many levels, then people realized he could run, despite how he looked.
If you are breeding to sell, since most buyers & trainers will use it as an 'automatic decider' to walk away from a prospect they liked on paper, probably best to breed something else.
If you are breeding to sell, since most buyers & trainers will use it as an 'automatic decider' to walk away from a prospect they liked on paper, probably best to breed something else.
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skywatcher
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Yes.
There is an old expression "knees breed true", meaning back at the knee and offset knees are dominant conformation flaws that are passed on with disgusting regularity.
As others have already pointed out, there have been some wonderful racehorses that were back at the knee, but it is the kiss of death for a sale horse, so this mare is not a good candidate for commercial breeding. Does she come from a great family and did she perform well at a very high level while staying sound? If not, you might want to take another look at your reasons for breeding her.
There is an old expression "knees breed true", meaning back at the knee and offset knees are dominant conformation flaws that are passed on with disgusting regularity.
As others have already pointed out, there have been some wonderful racehorses that were back at the knee, but it is the kiss of death for a sale horse, so this mare is not a good candidate for commercial breeding. Does she come from a great family and did she perform well at a very high level while staying sound? If not, you might want to take another look at your reasons for breeding her.-
Bunty Lawless
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Re: Mares who are "back in the knee".
bajanguy wrote:Hi Guys, Please share your thoughts about breeding "back in the knee" mares. I have a mares who has the condition and I am wondering about her as a broodmare prospect . Is this condition one which is easily passed to the offspring ?
Could you post a side conformation shot of the mare you are referring to? I think it depends on the degree of the back at the knee and the rest of the conformation picture. Also, waiting to start a horse that is back at the knee allows it to often grow out of the severity of the condition.
John Henry could pull it off because he had excellent forehand and strength in his hind quarters. I've been reading that these things are far more important than what the average person looks for in a horse's chances for success. Even major vet educational programs are studying this and seeming to determine it isn't near as important as many other conformational flaws that put stress on the horse.
Re: Mares who are "back in the knee".
Bunty Lawless wrote:Could you post a side conformation shot of the mare you are referring to? I think it depends on the degree of the back at the knee and the rest of the conformation picture. Also, waiting to start a horse that is back at the knee allows it to often grow out of the severity of the condition.
I agree with this. Calling "back at the knee" an automatic deal-breaker is taking the easy way out. Much better to take the whole picture into consideration. I've seen mares that were back at the knee produce beautiful offspring--who didn't share their dam's problem. Mega-sire Danehill was famous for being back at the knee himself, and for reproducing that fault with regularity. It didn't stop him from being a top producer year after year.
Yes, most U.S buyers will shy away from a sales yearling that has that fault--but again, that depends on degree, severity, and what else the yearling has to offer. As with so many things that pertain to horses, I don't think a blanket statement can be issued. Judge the mare as an individual, taking all of her faults and virtues into consideration. If she has little else to commend her, I'd walk away. But if her good points outweigh the bad, go ahead and give her a shot; you might be pleasantly surprised by what she gives you.
By the way, when it comes to racing, turf is a more forgiving surface for a horse with that particular problem.
knees
An unraced back at the knee mare is asking for heartache.
The point made above that there are really good mares on the market cheap is good business sense, but also good horse sense.
It just isn't good for the individual horse, or the breed, to breed known flaws into progeny.
Make a good pet out of this mare, but don't breed her.
The point made above that there are really good mares on the market cheap is good business sense, but also good horse sense.
It just isn't good for the individual horse, or the breed, to breed known flaws into progeny.
Make a good pet out of this mare, but don't breed her.
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Heather T.
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Very high quality broodmares and broodmare sires have often been back at the knees. Buckpasser was slightly back at the knees, but was one of the greatest broodmare sires of all time. He passed this trait on to many of his great daughters. Today, you see the flaw in many of the X-chromosome line decedents of Buckpasser - top race horses and top sires.
Life in Fiction was back at the knees (and always had knee problems because of it), but her graded-stakes winning son, Shadowless (by Stormy Atlantic), is not. One of the reasons I bred to Stormy Atlantic was that he was slightly over at the knee. You wouldn't think over-at-the-knees would correct back-at-the-knees, but in this case, it seemed to work.
That said, back-at-the-knees is generally a severe flaw, but if the horse is otherwise talented, not too big and the knees are not also offset, you can get a good race horse. Life in Fiction's issue was that she was not only back at the knees, but also unusually big and somewhat offset to boot.
Life in Fiction was back at the knees (and always had knee problems because of it), but her graded-stakes winning son, Shadowless (by Stormy Atlantic), is not. One of the reasons I bred to Stormy Atlantic was that he was slightly over at the knee. You wouldn't think over-at-the-knees would correct back-at-the-knees, but in this case, it seemed to work.
That said, back-at-the-knees is generally a severe flaw, but if the horse is otherwise talented, not too big and the knees are not also offset, you can get a good race horse. Life in Fiction's issue was that she was not only back at the knees, but also unusually big and somewhat offset to boot.