Thought I would post my introduction to the world of racing. Maybe others can add their tales of woe so that newcomers to this game can learn from our mistakes.
A few years ago, I was a member of a small partnership (3 members). All of us were novices so we relied and depended on our trainers for advice. Eager to get started, we asked our trainer to get us some horses so that we would be ready to begin when the racing season started. We didn't want to claim a horse but we were looking with something with potential to go on to do something big.
Our trainer had a working relationship with a Woodbine vet who she claimed had some horses that we might be interested in. We instructed her to go and take a look at them and report back to us.
To make a long story short, we ending up buying two maiden three year olds for approx. $40,000. One was a filly who was a cribber and had sold just months before for $3,000. We paid $12,000. The other was a gelding that we paid $27,500. We thought we got a deal because he originally wanted $35,000.
Later, we learned that both had been in training as two yr olds and showed little promise. The vet figured it was time to dump them on some unsuspective individuals and we just happened to be available thanks to some "great" advice from our trainer.
The mistake we made was that we put too much faith in our trainer and we believed that a vet would have some ethics and believed his professional opinion. We thought they were looking out for us but really they were looking for ways to take advantage of us. Welcome to racing!!!
In hindsight, we probably should have gone up with the trainer to look at the horses, but we wouldn't have known what qualities to look for in a horse anyway.
Our "trainer" not longer trains....she was terrible. The vet is still a vet at Woodbine and even operates a well known training centre. I'd be interested in knowing how many other people were ripped off by him???
Anyone else have a story to share???
So you want to be an owner...
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Sparafucile
- Suckling
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:32 pm
- Location: Ontario
How exactly did you go about selecting your trainer in the first place? Was she winning alot of races, had a good solid reputation, been in the business for years??
I would not be upset with the vet who sold you the horses. I would expect that your trainer knew the three year olds in question had been broke and were training the previous year. Who in their right mind would sell two 3 year olds with all their conditions for what amounts to peanuts if they had indeed showed the talent that you were expecting them to have?
I'd also be wondering how much money the vet actually got from the sale and how much of a finders fee your trainer hit him up for...
I would not be upset with the vet who sold you the horses. I would expect that your trainer knew the three year olds in question had been broke and were training the previous year. Who in their right mind would sell two 3 year olds with all their conditions for what amounts to peanuts if they had indeed showed the talent that you were expecting them to have?
I'd also be wondering how much money the vet actually got from the sale and how much of a finders fee your trainer hit him up for...
I spent 5 years researcher before I ever bought a horse so I was able to make my own decisions. Thats too bad this happened but you are not the first or last. In my travels I am always amazed at how little some owners know who throw tons of money at the sport.
I was at a Grade 1 event one year sitting with an owner who had a horse in the race. We were watching the first race of the day, not the feature. It was a route so they had to go under the finish line twice. He started screaming after a furlong when the horse passed under the wire, thinking he won. As the horse kept running he sheepishly realised they had to go around again I wanted to laugh but did'nt want to offend him. He was/is a very nice but did'nt know. Clueless! He spends millions every year and when ever I see his name I laugh.
Maybe you should get involved with an established partnership outfit like westpoint, etc..They mark everything way up but they have an ethical track record.
I was at a Grade 1 event one year sitting with an owner who had a horse in the race. We were watching the first race of the day, not the feature. It was a route so they had to go under the finish line twice. He started screaming after a furlong when the horse passed under the wire, thinking he won. As the horse kept running he sheepishly realised they had to go around again I wanted to laugh but did'nt want to offend him. He was/is a very nice but did'nt know. Clueless! He spends millions every year and when ever I see his name I laugh.
Maybe you should get involved with an established partnership outfit like westpoint, etc..They mark everything way up but they have an ethical track record.
Spara,
I am sure you will now be attacked by everyone for being honest. Just ignore accusatory posts! Your story is, unfortunately, too common. It's happens time and time again in this sport.
I have come to the conclusion that it is hard for true novices to break into the game because the bottom line is that they must put their trust in somebody. But, in this game it is full of used car salesmans and you must place your trust very wisely.
A true novice will not know what to avoid and how to check out people and horses. I am assuming that you guys probably were not involved in the horse industry prior to buying racehorses? You are the exact type of person I fear will be taken advantage of.
For example, I recently met a man that got caught up in the Funny Cide drama and wanted to race. Awesome news!! I don't care what gets someone excited just that they want to get involved.
So, he goes to farm in NY and tells them he wants to buy 2 weanlings. Now, an honest person would have steered this novice clear of buying 2 weanlings and talk to him about claiming a horse or getting involved in a partnership just to start. Nope. These people sold him 2 weanlings with no pedigree page for 5 times what the stallions weanlings were going for in auctions. He trusted this farm and didn't know better.
It's easy to say buyer beware but true novices have no knowledge of where to find information and who to trust.
I am truly sorry for your experiences. I hope you stay involved. If you would like to get involved again I am sure people here can direct you to trainers that we trust and will do right by you. In fact, feel free to PM me if you wish.
We don't do partnerships and race our own but we are also lucky enough to have found some pearls (but have gone through lots of crap) that we trust. Good luck and hang in there!!
I am sure you will now be attacked by everyone for being honest. Just ignore accusatory posts! Your story is, unfortunately, too common. It's happens time and time again in this sport.
I have come to the conclusion that it is hard for true novices to break into the game because the bottom line is that they must put their trust in somebody. But, in this game it is full of used car salesmans and you must place your trust very wisely.
A true novice will not know what to avoid and how to check out people and horses. I am assuming that you guys probably were not involved in the horse industry prior to buying racehorses? You are the exact type of person I fear will be taken advantage of.
For example, I recently met a man that got caught up in the Funny Cide drama and wanted to race. Awesome news!! I don't care what gets someone excited just that they want to get involved.
So, he goes to farm in NY and tells them he wants to buy 2 weanlings. Now, an honest person would have steered this novice clear of buying 2 weanlings and talk to him about claiming a horse or getting involved in a partnership just to start. Nope. These people sold him 2 weanlings with no pedigree page for 5 times what the stallions weanlings were going for in auctions. He trusted this farm and didn't know better.
It's easy to say buyer beware but true novices have no knowledge of where to find information and who to trust.
I am truly sorry for your experiences. I hope you stay involved. If you would like to get involved again I am sure people here can direct you to trainers that we trust and will do right by you. In fact, feel free to PM me if you wish.
We don't do partnerships and race our own but we are also lucky enough to have found some pearls (but have gone through lots of crap) that we trust. Good luck and hang in there!!
Spar -
I think the bottom line is that you ran into some individuals that are, plain and simple, disreputable. Anyone that would rip off a new person entering the game is disreputable. Period. Some think that this is an inherent part of the game. Unfortunately it is very common.
I have found one thing to be true. The first step, and its not always the easiest, is to find someone who is reputable. Then, ONLY build out your contacts via referral from those that you know to be reputable.
The partnership route is fine - if you are willing to overpay, and give up control. Frankly, that is an entirely different "passive" game.
I think the bottom line is that you ran into some individuals that are, plain and simple, disreputable. Anyone that would rip off a new person entering the game is disreputable. Period. Some think that this is an inherent part of the game. Unfortunately it is very common.
I have found one thing to be true. The first step, and its not always the easiest, is to find someone who is reputable. Then, ONLY build out your contacts via referral from those that you know to be reputable.
The partnership route is fine - if you are willing to overpay, and give up control. Frankly, that is an entirely different "passive" game.
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Laurierace
- Grade II Winner
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:14 am
Well unless the vet was giving the trainer a huge percentage of the sales price of those horses I don't see what her motivation would be to knowingly buy you crappy horses. Trainers want to win just as much as owners do as that is where the money is. Day money is peanuts, the win percentage is what pays the bills.
I am sorry you had a bad experience. I hope that doesn't turn you off on racing altogether as it can be the best feeling in the world.
I am sorry you had a bad experience. I hope that doesn't turn you off on racing altogether as it can be the best feeling in the world.
[quote="Laurierace"]. Trainers want to win just as much as owners do as that is where the money is. Day money is peanuts, the win percentage is what pays the bills.
quote]
Can you please explain how you can consider day money to be "peanuts"? Paying $75/day plus vet does not equate to peanuts to me and that is what we paid to a trainer who had a horse for nearly 9 months and it never started. He was making his money off the day money, although I sincerely doubt he spent more than a day or two at the track himself in a week. His 10% of the purse would have been the peanut part to me since no horse is consistantly going to be picking up a huge chunk of the purse in each start.
Since I am new to this board but have been reading it with interest since the fall, I am really trying to figure out where you all are coming from and maybe learn something as well.
quote]
Can you please explain how you can consider day money to be "peanuts"? Paying $75/day plus vet does not equate to peanuts to me and that is what we paid to a trainer who had a horse for nearly 9 months and it never started. He was making his money off the day money, although I sincerely doubt he spent more than a day or two at the track himself in a week. His 10% of the purse would have been the peanut part to me since no horse is consistantly going to be picking up a huge chunk of the purse in each start.
Since I am new to this board but have been reading it with interest since the fall, I am really trying to figure out where you all are coming from and maybe learn something as well.
A good trainer is not making money on the day rate, the money you spend gets redistributed by the trainer to the groom, hotwalker, excerise rider, feed company, hay, straw, shavings.... I know it sounds like alot of money but think about how labor intensive this industry is, that's what your money is paying for.
I have horses at Woodbine and pay 85.00 per day and unless my horse wins I know my trainer is only breaking even on having that horse in the barn.
I have horses at Woodbine and pay 85.00 per day and unless my horse wins I know my trainer is only breaking even on having that horse in the barn.
I spent several years studying as much as I could before jumping into racing. I would play my own little fantasy claiming game and follow the horses that I had "claimed" to see how they continued to run. I found one trainer in particular who tended to claim many of the horses that I had selected in my fantasy game. I spoke with him, liked what I heard and I started claiming horses last year. I only had a couple or three horses in training at one time but we walked away at the end of the year with a record of 5 wins, 2 places and a show after just 18 races. Maybe it was beginners luck, but I feel it was more likely all the time and effort I put in studying and then selecting a trainer who obviously thought the way I did when it came to claiming horses. Even though it is often considered a business no-no, I consider my trainer to be one of my best friends now. We have an excellent relationship and I feel I can trust him as much as I can trust any of my other friends.
By the way, to those who believe the MYTH that trainers can't live off day-rate alone... time to grow up and stop believing everything you hear.
One has to trust their trainer and when first entering into that relationship one should not forget the words of Ronald Reagan: "Trust... but verify."
By the way, to those who believe the MYTH that trainers can't live off day-rate alone... time to grow up and stop believing everything you hear.
One has to trust their trainer and when first entering into that relationship one should not forget the words of Ronald Reagan: "Trust... but verify."
Icouldbeyou,
75/day does seem crazy but it is true that trainers make very little off day rate it essentially covers costs and just a tad beyond that. Feed supplies are very expensive at the track. The exercise rider gets 15 day to get on, you are paying your other help, insurance, usually a day rate per stall (not always) it adds up fast. It really is peanuts. Not to the one paying but to the one getting it. They are probably making 5/day per horse.
I am not saying you were'nt taken for a ride but alot of horses dont start in 9 months only 75% foals ever make any starts. Most owners loose money, especially if you only have a couple horses. When you do hit big, however it can carry your entire operation but that horse is only 5%. Long odds.
75/day does seem crazy but it is true that trainers make very little off day rate it essentially covers costs and just a tad beyond that. Feed supplies are very expensive at the track. The exercise rider gets 15 day to get on, you are paying your other help, insurance, usually a day rate per stall (not always) it adds up fast. It really is peanuts. Not to the one paying but to the one getting it. They are probably making 5/day per horse.
I am not saying you were'nt taken for a ride but alot of horses dont start in 9 months only 75% foals ever make any starts. Most owners loose money, especially if you only have a couple horses. When you do hit big, however it can carry your entire operation but that horse is only 5%. Long odds.
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Vindicated
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 342
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:46 am
fletch621 wrote:I spent several years studying as much as I could before jumping into racing. I would play my own little fantasy claiming game and follow the horses that I had "claimed" to see how they continued to run. I found one trainer in particular who tended to claim many of the horses that I had selected in my fantasy game. I spoke with him, liked what I heard and I started claiming horses last year. I only had a couple or three horses in training at one time but we walked away at the end of the year with a record of 5 wins, 2 places and a show after just 18 races. Maybe it was beginners luck, but I feel it was more likely all the time and effort I put in studying and then selecting a trainer who obviously thought the way I did when it came to claiming horses. Even though it is often considered a business no-no, I consider my trainer to be one of my best friends now. We have an excellent relationship and I feel I can trust him as much as I can trust any of my other friends.
By the way, to those who believe the MYTH that trainers can't live off day-rate alone... time to grow up and stop believing everything you hear.
One has to trust their trainer and when first entering into that relationship one should not forget the words of Ronald Reagan: "Trust... but verify."
So Fletch-Break down a day rate-rider fees, straw, hay, grain, stable supplies (most owners do not supply bandages, ect.) then workers, and all of the other incidentals and find out how much your trainer friend is actually making off of the day rate-it is peanuts-if his horses are living properly..
End note: if you walk down the backside, it is very easy to tell who are the trainers with the higher day rates (at regional tracks anyway) the horses look great and and the area is tidy...If your trainer friend is making GOOD money off of the day rate-what are the horses missing out on?
It costs a lot to train at a racetrack.
To train at Churchill or Trackside, the stall rent is only $5 a day. But the horses have to be walked, so you are talking $10 per horse per day for a person to walk, each time they walk. Exercise riders have all gone up to $15 a day. Grooms get at least $15 per day per horse. You are now at $40 a day without feed and bedding which can run $12-15 a day. Trainers provide their own tack, etc. They usually have to have a nightwatchman, and a janitor type that keeps the place looking decent. At Churchill and Trackside, they also do their own barn and grounds maintenance. It COSTS about $55 per day for a horse there, without the trainer getting anything at all out of it, and not including supplies, supplements, etc. That type of environment is very staff heavy. To get with a good trainer runs at least $90 a day.
A training center might be a lot less expensive. I know a big name Churchill trainer who moved his operation last year to a beautiful big relatively new training center. The training center does ALL of the maintenance. It is in a quiet, private location and trainers do not need to pay their own night watchmen. It has Eurocisers, which replace the human walkers for stall mucking, etc. It has an indoor 1/4 mile track so the horses don't miss work, which again saves human walkers. There is a polytrack track, and a full size dirt track. There are board fenced turnout paddocks available by the week or month so trainers don't have to ship out and pay for layup/turnouts. There is not a lot of fighting for stalls and there is no quota on starts-per-stall like there is at the track. Trainers have enormous hay and straw lockers in a separate building, reducing theft. There are hot/cold water wash racks inside the barns. The training center permits the use of sawdust bedding, whereas the track is straw only, so bedding cost are at least 75% lower. My "big time" pal said his payroll and operating costs went down $2K a week. So he can take horses there for a lot less than what he had to have at Churchill. He has his own hyperbaric chamber which they almost came to blows with having it on the property at Churchill. The training center gave him a whole building for the thing and built him a recovery stall. Since he moved, his stats have SOARED and he is winning at about a 55% clip.
I think the day rate can very WIDELY - but the day rate does NOT guarantee quality. I've had experience having one with a less expensive trainer - he was a great trainer but very bad at business. He really needed to be an asst trainer for someone else who could handle the books and the money. When he owed the riders $$ the horses didn't work. He would be at my farm nearly every week looking for an "advance" on the training because of other owners who didn't pay him. Because the problem with being a "cheap" trainer is he or she will get "cheap" or "broke" owners who don't pay on time and when the $$ balance is that precarious one little flaw can bring down the whole house of cards. There's another guy I know who seems to be able to find people to pony up $65 a day but I wouldn't hire him to train ivy.
It is just as important for the trainer you hire to be good at business. Being bad at business, no matter the trainer's horsemanship skills, will eventually affect your horse.
To train at Churchill or Trackside, the stall rent is only $5 a day. But the horses have to be walked, so you are talking $10 per horse per day for a person to walk, each time they walk. Exercise riders have all gone up to $15 a day. Grooms get at least $15 per day per horse. You are now at $40 a day without feed and bedding which can run $12-15 a day. Trainers provide their own tack, etc. They usually have to have a nightwatchman, and a janitor type that keeps the place looking decent. At Churchill and Trackside, they also do their own barn and grounds maintenance. It COSTS about $55 per day for a horse there, without the trainer getting anything at all out of it, and not including supplies, supplements, etc. That type of environment is very staff heavy. To get with a good trainer runs at least $90 a day.
A training center might be a lot less expensive. I know a big name Churchill trainer who moved his operation last year to a beautiful big relatively new training center. The training center does ALL of the maintenance. It is in a quiet, private location and trainers do not need to pay their own night watchmen. It has Eurocisers, which replace the human walkers for stall mucking, etc. It has an indoor 1/4 mile track so the horses don't miss work, which again saves human walkers. There is a polytrack track, and a full size dirt track. There are board fenced turnout paddocks available by the week or month so trainers don't have to ship out and pay for layup/turnouts. There is not a lot of fighting for stalls and there is no quota on starts-per-stall like there is at the track. Trainers have enormous hay and straw lockers in a separate building, reducing theft. There are hot/cold water wash racks inside the barns. The training center permits the use of sawdust bedding, whereas the track is straw only, so bedding cost are at least 75% lower. My "big time" pal said his payroll and operating costs went down $2K a week. So he can take horses there for a lot less than what he had to have at Churchill. He has his own hyperbaric chamber which they almost came to blows with having it on the property at Churchill. The training center gave him a whole building for the thing and built him a recovery stall. Since he moved, his stats have SOARED and he is winning at about a 55% clip.
I think the day rate can very WIDELY - but the day rate does NOT guarantee quality. I've had experience having one with a less expensive trainer - he was a great trainer but very bad at business. He really needed to be an asst trainer for someone else who could handle the books and the money. When he owed the riders $$ the horses didn't work. He would be at my farm nearly every week looking for an "advance" on the training because of other owners who didn't pay him. Because the problem with being a "cheap" trainer is he or she will get "cheap" or "broke" owners who don't pay on time and when the $$ balance is that precarious one little flaw can bring down the whole house of cards. There's another guy I know who seems to be able to find people to pony up $65 a day but I wouldn't hire him to train ivy.
It is just as important for the trainer you hire to be good at business. Being bad at business, no matter the trainer's horsemanship skills, will eventually affect your horse.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
The first trainer I ever used claimed a 40 to 1 first time starter long shot filly running in a maiden 8500 race at Laurel Park. That is the bottom level race.
She claimed the horse in the fall and wanted to wait until Colonial Park to open to try the horse on the turf. Meanwhile, she wanted me to pay the 50 day rate from Sept thru July(whenever colonial park opened) while they got this horse ready to try the turf.
Needless to say that was losing proposition. The horse never won a race. I switched trainer and moved the horse to charlie town. I think I lost about 30 to 40k my first couple of years in racing.
Its hard to find an honest trainer which is why I use my brother in law in Oklahoma now. At least I know he wont cheat me. If a horse cant run he will tell me and not bs around.
She claimed the horse in the fall and wanted to wait until Colonial Park to open to try the horse on the turf. Meanwhile, she wanted me to pay the 50 day rate from Sept thru July(whenever colonial park opened) while they got this horse ready to try the turf.
Needless to say that was losing proposition. The horse never won a race. I switched trainer and moved the horse to charlie town. I think I lost about 30 to 40k my first couple of years in racing.
Its hard to find an honest trainer which is why I use my brother in law in Oklahoma now. At least I know he wont cheat me. If a horse cant run he will tell me and not bs around.
Lets see if I have understood what you all are saying (and yes I do know that there are grooms, exercise riders, outriders, supplies and feed costs) after all the afore mentioned costs a $75/day trainer should pocket about 15-20/day x 10 horses would be 150-200/day in his pocket and he doesnt even get out of bed to go to the track 4 days a week. So high end he is earning in his pocket $1400 per week before even starting a horse on 10 horses and this particular trainer had 25 horses in his barn at all times. So he was theoretically earning about $5000 per month BEFORE entering a horse. This is why I think that day money is definitely NOT peanuts for the trainers.
I will mention that his horses always looked show ready and were definitely well taken care of so he employed a very good staff. He had 1 groom for every 3-4 horses and the groom also hotwalked and did stalls and feeding (I found this out by having a long talk with one of them one day when I was waiting for the trainer to show up for our meeting and he never did)
El-Camino after 9 months of excuses why our horse had not even been entered in a race, we moved to a different trainer at a nearby track and won at 3rd asking with a trainer who we paid $40/day. You could tell the different work ethic and this trainer needed to earn his 15% to live.
To the original poster, I have learned not to quit until I have been burned 3 times. I hope 2009 is very good to you. Do you still have a horse or 2 in training?
I will mention that his horses always looked show ready and were definitely well taken care of so he employed a very good staff. He had 1 groom for every 3-4 horses and the groom also hotwalked and did stalls and feeding (I found this out by having a long talk with one of them one day when I was waiting for the trainer to show up for our meeting and he never did)
El-Camino after 9 months of excuses why our horse had not even been entered in a race, we moved to a different trainer at a nearby track and won at 3rd asking with a trainer who we paid $40/day. You could tell the different work ethic and this trainer needed to earn his 15% to live.
To the original poster, I have learned not to quit until I have been burned 3 times. I hope 2009 is very good to you. Do you still have a horse or 2 in training?
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Sparafucile
- Suckling
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:32 pm
- Location: Ontario
The point I am trying to make is that this sport is doomed if new people are not attracted to being involved in it as owners.
Where does a new owner get the necessary education to make an informed decision with respect to purchasing a horse or hiring a trainer? Yes, we were naive. We thought that when a trainer was hired, that they would be working "for" you not "against" you. We thought that a doctor of veterinary medicine would be someone to be trusted and ethical. How were we to know that he had the morals of a snake oil salesman?
People like that only hurt the sport. Yet nothing stops them from being licensed and continuing to work in the industry. I know that I am not the only one screwed by this vet.
But sadly, if this is allowed to continue, trainers and vets will become very good at doing Sodoku puzzles because there will be few new owners coming into the game to replace the ones who finally wake up and leave the sport with pockets empty.
Where does a new owner get the necessary education to make an informed decision with respect to purchasing a horse or hiring a trainer? Yes, we were naive. We thought that when a trainer was hired, that they would be working "for" you not "against" you. We thought that a doctor of veterinary medicine would be someone to be trusted and ethical. How were we to know that he had the morals of a snake oil salesman?
People like that only hurt the sport. Yet nothing stops them from being licensed and continuing to work in the industry. I know that I am not the only one screwed by this vet.
But sadly, if this is allowed to continue, trainers and vets will become very good at doing Sodoku puzzles because there will be few new owners coming into the game to replace the ones who finally wake up and leave the sport with pockets empty.