Gerry,
Hey, my horses are usually [u]upstate[/u], so I sympathize totally about the long trip to the sales. So, I'm definitely not suggesting the NYC area - Belmont or Aqueduct - simply because it would be a shorter trip for my guys. But as I said, I really think that to sell effectively, you've got to cater to the [u]buyers[/u]. Most of the potential buyers of racing and breeding stock will not be found upstate in September, IMHO. Who buys racing and breeding stock? Trainers, owners, as I said, most of them will be where the racing s. Upstate in September, what you've got basically are a number of farms buying stock off each other at bloodbath prices. The Timonium mixed sales work because the location is semi-accessible to NY, MD, PA, NJ etc. If you want a NY sale to work, I think you've got to make it accessible to many of those same buyers - hence the suggested downstate location. Yes, the Timonium venue could be used, but then it wouldn't really be a NY sale, would it? Plus, most of the NY consignors have in the past sold at the Fasig Tipton Timonium sale - I am SURE they would feel they were stepping on toes by trying to start a Timonium sale in Sept. I can't see those NY consignors doing that - it would be directly competitive - almost in-your-face competitive. What would be wrong with a Belmont sale in September - wouldn't it be better to travel a little further and be more assured of selling your horses, than to stay upstate and prep, pay entry fees, commissions, and STILL not sell? My heart goes out to those small-time breeders who took their stock to the mixed sale and barely got a bid. I hesitate to go into great detail about why I envision a successful City sale, because, as you note, no one really listens. I'll limit my last comments to these: 1) having been to Timonium on a yearly basis for quite a few years now, I can assure you that the weather for the mixed sales in the winter often ends up being totally miserable - those winter mixed sales are sales for the hard core; 2) I think a NYC sale in September could be much more intriguing and would encourage even non-racing people to attend - if the sale sucks, there is always interesting/fun stuff to do - whether in racing (visiting the tracks) or just on a tourist level. I envision syndicate managers leading their non-horsey clients around beautiful Belmont, with perhaps kids in tow - 3) on sales atmosphere - why not strive for the atmosphere that Saratoga has in August? Jazz trios playing upbeat music, packed gourmet lunches, stuff for the kids. That's the kind of stuff you can do at Belmont, which is beautiful as you know. No amount of planning or marketing of a sale held off season in a smaller NY town far from the racing will attract more than the hardboots, really. I think you need a little glitter. I think you'd encourage far more sales with a more festive atmosphere close to a major league city. So, there you go. Those are some of the reasons why I believe a downstate sale will be better for breeders in the long run. Gotta bring the sale to the buyers, make it convenient for them and let them have some fun with the whole thing.
W/r/t the question on TRF and the $500 upset price - don't know about that. Did see the lower prices for TRF. But do ya really care - I mean those horses will be going to a good home. It would be nice if those horses were free to the TRF, but that can't always be the case, I guess.
Crystal,
thanks for the info.
NY / Saratoga Sales results?
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Hurley... I didnt mean Timonium I was just using that as an example...there must be a fairgrounds with stabling that a sale coould be held at. To be honest, I hate cities and traffic so I would stay clear since I dont want to travel with my trailer through all of that if I can avoid it. Besides unless you use Aqueduct when Belmont is going or vice versa where would you stable your horses, I have been to the sales at Belmont and would agree that a sale in that area would attract buyers but since I van myself I wouldnt be one and I am sure other "small timers" like myself feel the same way. I have been buying/selling at the Dec/Feb FT sales since 1988 so I guess unfortunately for the time being at least thats where I have to stay. Even when my foals race out of state. As for the TRF buying at $500 yes that does bother me, why can they bid at less than the $1000 reserve. I understand that the mares are getting good homes ect but it doesnt seem fair that just because they are the TRF they can buy at $500 where the rest of us would have to start at $1000. And the mares had decent pedigrees, put either of those mares on the internet at $500 and they would be in my barn. It may just be that after the sale the TRF offered $500 to the consignors for each of those mares and that would be fine by me but then why put it on the results page? I dont like double standards, owners/breeders paying one price and select others another.
Hi Gerry,
Just checked my Saraoga mixed sale catalog, where I'd scrawled a few notes after watching much of it on the Internet, and guess what - next to the hip numbers of the horses bought by the TRF, I'd written "no bid." In my note-taking shorthand, that mean those two mares were led out of the ring, with no one bidding the upset $1,000 price. So, I guess TRF did buy them privately, out of the ring and not subject to upset prices. I agree, absent infertility or any huge conformation issues, both were definitely worth more than $500 for heaven's sake!! One thing you might try if, like me, you're some distance from a sale: calling the consignor in advance and saying, hey, I know XYZ horses are not likely to go through without a bid, but if that unlikely event happens - you've got my $500, $600, whatever on the mare so here's my number. Call me if she's mine.
Just checked my Saraoga mixed sale catalog, where I'd scrawled a few notes after watching much of it on the Internet, and guess what - next to the hip numbers of the horses bought by the TRF, I'd written "no bid." In my note-taking shorthand, that mean those two mares were led out of the ring, with no one bidding the upset $1,000 price. So, I guess TRF did buy them privately, out of the ring and not subject to upset prices. I agree, absent infertility or any huge conformation issues, both were definitely worth more than $500 for heaven's sake!! One thing you might try if, like me, you're some distance from a sale: calling the consignor in advance and saying, hey, I know XYZ horses are not likely to go through without a bid, but if that unlikely event happens - you've got my $500, $600, whatever on the mare so here's my number. Call me if she's mine.
Hurley,
Thanks for taking notes! I had hoped that was the case that they brought no bid and were bought afterwards by TRF. I purposely did not go to the sale for the broodmare side or even watch on the internet because I have a full house at the moment with our mares and have to keep stalls open for the mares who come in early for breeding ect. But if I had gone my trailer would not have left empty. I can understand why yearlings sold poorly just coming off the Saratoga yearling sales, and the HORA were limited, weanlings you have to keep along time even if you are going to pinhook next summer but the mares I just dont understand.
Its a learning curve..wonder what next year will be like?! I may go and not be afford anything!!
How widely advertised was the sale? OBS, FT and Keeneland are very well established so people just know when they are but I wondering outside of the immediate area of NY/PA/NJ/MA did anyone know about the sale. Just thinking out loud since we will have 15+ foals on the ground next year and it would be nice to have a NY venue.
Thanks for taking notes! I had hoped that was the case that they brought no bid and were bought afterwards by TRF. I purposely did not go to the sale for the broodmare side or even watch on the internet because I have a full house at the moment with our mares and have to keep stalls open for the mares who come in early for breeding ect. But if I had gone my trailer would not have left empty. I can understand why yearlings sold poorly just coming off the Saratoga yearling sales, and the HORA were limited, weanlings you have to keep along time even if you are going to pinhook next summer but the mares I just dont understand.
Its a learning curve..wonder what next year will be like?! I may go and not be afford anything!!
How widely advertised was the sale? OBS, FT and Keeneland are very well established so people just know when they are but I wondering outside of the immediate area of NY/PA/NJ/MA did anyone know about the sale. Just thinking out loud since we will have 15+ foals on the ground next year and it would be nice to have a NY venue.
Gerry,
I think it was pretty well advertised. I know there were quite a few press releases/stories. They also advertised in all the major racing publications. All of the members of NYTB were sent copies of the catalog.
Just looking again at those 2 mares pedigrees - ya know what you should be glad you didn't take them home if your purpose was to put them in a breeding program - they could have been worth the money, but there are big question marks there too.
Hip 264 has a halfway decent page, some quality blacktype - but she was unraced and by Slewpy a not so commercial sire, and then look at the produce record: bred to some interesting sires early on, including Smart Strike, Candy Stripes, Saint Ballado, Formal Gold, Vicar, then a 2003 foal by AP Jet, no foal in 2004 and selling barren. What do you want to bet she's not breeding sound now? I'm just guessing, because with her page and the sires she's been bred to, if she had no issues someone would have bid on her. Something's wrong there, and maybe it has to do with the 2004, 2005 no foal, or some other health issue.
Hip 405 the Distinctive Pro mare, will be 19 years old soon and has a hard luck produce record: 9 live foals, and 6 of them are unnamed or unraced (granted, 1 is not yet of racing age and another is a 2yo). Though the catalog lists her as bred to Catienus, the updated information on the sale's website has her as "not in foal." I guess both mares were worth those low sales prices, but they were a little iffy - you might end up with a lot of heartache and emptied bank accounts with those two!
I think it was pretty well advertised. I know there were quite a few press releases/stories. They also advertised in all the major racing publications. All of the members of NYTB were sent copies of the catalog.
Just looking again at those 2 mares pedigrees - ya know what you should be glad you didn't take them home if your purpose was to put them in a breeding program - they could have been worth the money, but there are big question marks there too.
Hip 264 has a halfway decent page, some quality blacktype - but she was unraced and by Slewpy a not so commercial sire, and then look at the produce record: bred to some interesting sires early on, including Smart Strike, Candy Stripes, Saint Ballado, Formal Gold, Vicar, then a 2003 foal by AP Jet, no foal in 2004 and selling barren. What do you want to bet she's not breeding sound now? I'm just guessing, because with her page and the sires she's been bred to, if she had no issues someone would have bid on her. Something's wrong there, and maybe it has to do with the 2004, 2005 no foal, or some other health issue.
Hip 405 the Distinctive Pro mare, will be 19 years old soon and has a hard luck produce record: 9 live foals, and 6 of them are unnamed or unraced (granted, 1 is not yet of racing age and another is a 2yo). Though the catalog lists her as bred to Catienus, the updated information on the sale's website has her as "not in foal." I guess both mares were worth those low sales prices, but they were a little iffy - you might end up with a lot of heartache and emptied bank accounts with those two!
I would have taken a shot at 264, she is still young, comes from a good family but I am guessing that they are late maturers which would hinder her sales ability. But not bad for a small breeder who doesnt aim at the sales. I do agree that 405 was a risk at her age and produce record the chance of her producing a good runner is low so I understand her RNA.
I am hoping that the powers that be can get this sales off the ground. It would be nice to have a venue where NY Breeders can sell and actually make $$.
Just looking at the # of horses with no bid I am thinking either: 1) that there were just not enough buyers there, or 2) could it have been that the farms used this as a clearing house for the horses they considered not worth keeping thru the winter?
Well I am done analyzing and guessing..time to get to work on the horses I already have and preparing for next year.
I am hoping that the powers that be can get this sales off the ground. It would be nice to have a venue where NY Breeders can sell and actually make $$.
Just looking at the # of horses with no bid I am thinking either: 1) that there were just not enough buyers there, or 2) could it have been that the farms used this as a clearing house for the horses they considered not worth keeping thru the winter?
Well I am done analyzing and guessing..time to get to work on the horses I already have and preparing for next year.
Hi,
I sold Hip #31 for $7,200, not nearly what she was worth. There were several internet bids on her that didn't get through. She did sell to a NY (Finger Lakes based) owner and my expenses were reduced at this sale. This filly had been accepted to the Saratoga Preferred Sale but Fasig-Tipton lost the application, then called me the morning before the sale wanting to know where the filly was. Part of a partnership, we thought we might take her to a 2yo in training sale since her 2yo sister was doing very well in training. I'll have to wait for the Breeder's Awards.
Hurley, you always have good ideas and I can't go into all the details but you're correct on some points in your hypothesis.
Many NY breeders have a fundamental lack of knowledge on feed and care. This is not a wholesale indictment but rather a fact about many farms in NY and the result is that the weanlings were more saleable because they hadn't been 'screwed up' yet.
There were some things that were done well in this sale, some things ambitious, but as with most sales, there were dissapointments.
Regards,
Pete
I sold Hip #31 for $7,200, not nearly what she was worth. There were several internet bids on her that didn't get through. She did sell to a NY (Finger Lakes based) owner and my expenses were reduced at this sale. This filly had been accepted to the Saratoga Preferred Sale but Fasig-Tipton lost the application, then called me the morning before the sale wanting to know where the filly was. Part of a partnership, we thought we might take her to a 2yo in training sale since her 2yo sister was doing very well in training. I'll have to wait for the Breeder's Awards.
Hurley, you always have good ideas and I can't go into all the details but you're correct on some points in your hypothesis.
Many NY breeders have a fundamental lack of knowledge on feed and care. This is not a wholesale indictment but rather a fact about many farms in NY and the result is that the weanlings were more saleable because they hadn't been 'screwed up' yet.
There were some things that were done well in this sale, some things ambitious, but as with most sales, there were dissapointments.
Regards,
Pete
Hi Pete,
I'd noticed that your filly was in the sale, and you are so right - she was worth far more than that. Saw her photograph on the "name game" website - and was quite impressed. (I had a special interest since my partnership had a Rock and Roll foal this year.) Your filly was a very pretty filly - well balanced, nice hind end, she looked pretty correct too. Did she toe out at all, as Rock and Roll does? I think your filly will blow them away at Fingerlakes. My advice: claim her back!!!
I'd noticed that your filly was in the sale, and you are so right - she was worth far more than that. Saw her photograph on the "name game" website - and was quite impressed. (I had a special interest since my partnership had a Rock and Roll foal this year.) Your filly was a very pretty filly - well balanced, nice hind end, she looked pretty correct too. Did she toe out at all, as Rock and Roll does? I think your filly will blow them away at Fingerlakes. My advice: claim her back!!!
Hi Hurley,
The filly was dead correct, actually pretty good size and we worked on her hip because the dam throws it a bit small. It's cosmetic but this filly has the most beautiful head.
This fillys older sister (all 3 filly sisters born on 3/19) by Running Stag would have started months ago but she's been through three trainers and 2 private sales. Everyone who's been in contact with her has wanted to own her. Oddly, the 2yo named Stag Dancer (should start any day now) is by Running Stag and she toes out quite a bit in her front right. Had Stag Dancer made it to the track I believe we would have gotten a better price. Had Stage Dancer won we might have doubled her price. Unfortunately we entered the yearling in the sale expecting Stag Dancer to start immediately and perhaps have 2-3 starts in by sales time. Each trainer has delayed her debut.
We also have a weanling Rock And Roll full sister who like her yearling sibling is dead correct, not quite as pretty but more athletic looking and she looks like she'll remain chestnut.
The mare, Fast Lover traces 4th gen to Nato and this family has always had a high percentage of quality filly runners. Stag Dancer has acted the part and we'll know soon enough, but I have a feeling that the yearling won't see claimers at Finger Lakes until the end of her career. I just have to live off the breeder's awards (I hope).
Regards,
Pete
The filly was dead correct, actually pretty good size and we worked on her hip because the dam throws it a bit small. It's cosmetic but this filly has the most beautiful head.
This fillys older sister (all 3 filly sisters born on 3/19) by Running Stag would have started months ago but she's been through three trainers and 2 private sales. Everyone who's been in contact with her has wanted to own her. Oddly, the 2yo named Stag Dancer (should start any day now) is by Running Stag and she toes out quite a bit in her front right. Had Stag Dancer made it to the track I believe we would have gotten a better price. Had Stage Dancer won we might have doubled her price. Unfortunately we entered the yearling in the sale expecting Stag Dancer to start immediately and perhaps have 2-3 starts in by sales time. Each trainer has delayed her debut.
We also have a weanling Rock And Roll full sister who like her yearling sibling is dead correct, not quite as pretty but more athletic looking and she looks like she'll remain chestnut.
The mare, Fast Lover traces 4th gen to Nato and this family has always had a high percentage of quality filly runners. Stag Dancer has acted the part and we'll know soon enough, but I have a feeling that the yearling won't see claimers at Finger Lakes until the end of her career. I just have to live off the breeder's awards (I hope).
Regards,
Pete